The Ninja Superthread

[Zamii]

ok im going to suggest something here and while some people will say "no no you cant do that because reason X", simple fact is if your skilled enough it can be done.
ninja can use BLM accuracy currently and blow the other classes out of the water due to more det/crit/ss
why? simple, ninja doesn't have any flank positionals, hell, to be honest i did this exact thing in t13 before my group wanted me to monk it.
simple fact is if ninja doesn't get positionals, there's going to be some fights that it simply destroys all other classes due to the lank of a flank allowing it to go for BLM acc, whereas if its balanced with that in mind it will be extremely weak in other fights due to not being able to do that.

[silentwindfr]

i'm not sure make the ninja go with the blm acc will affect anything, i'm curious to see what you really means by this. since ninja most skill are weaponskill and then recquire the same acc than dragoon and monk.

the trouble with the add of positional is not about the jobs is too easy and make it far stronger than other.... since positional have nothing to do with the dps. ninja positional is a trouble since the jobs wasn't designed with it inmind.
the combo system used by the ninja is not adapted. the mudra systeme is broken because of the lag, making it more complex than needed increasing more the difficulty of the jobs... adding positional will simply mess more the jobs. instead to make it more fun or more interesting it will make it more complicate for nothing. since positional is only a mere restriction, not a boost.

ninja have still the only systeme broken (mudra and it lag), a combo system quite basic (actually we are only using one combo branching with 3 finisher, spinning edge are the starting point of everything), the only positional unforgiving (TA still work like the previous positional system dragoon was using, making if you miss the positional, you don't get the effect of the skill)
and they plan to add positional on top of this? seriously... you did notice that a tons of ninja have already drop out of the jobs simply because of the mudra lag.... and believe me the add of the positional will not please player it will frustrate them more than anything.

i don't say is not possible to use positional, but that the skill level recquirement will be too high for most player.

[Houston009]

In the expansion, the skill level requirement to play every job effectively is raising.

[Arkenne]

Well, as Silent already mentioned it, NIN has a lot of skills branching from the same beginning so yep, positionals doesnt sound very appealing as it is... since unlike MNK they would go for positional of Spinning then positional of Gust... and repeat...

However, doesnt this also allow a new potential possibility?

What if... for example Spinning Edge, had not just one, but 2 positional effects?
As in Spinning Edge done on the Flank does more damage, and the very same Spinning Edge done from the back extends Huton in a bit.
Same story could be said about Gust Slash, since its almost as repetitive as Spinning Edge.

This could open the posibility for a more varied NIN gameplay relating positionals and losing nothing really, imo... if it were to happen like this...

There are other things that could bring about interesting stuff for NIN with positionals...
Like:
- Reduce CDs waiting time by 1 second.
- Extend/increase Dancing Edge effect.
- Extend/increase DoTs effect.
- Give a stackable buff to spend on something later.

Clearly I am just dreaming here... positionals will happen, and if they are like MNK or how they were for DRG... it could be sad... but Im hoping they impress me.

[silentwindfr]

i doubt they have gone this far, from the announcement, no new thing simply more restriction.
they don't plan to rework our jobs, simply add positional to our jobs, because... i have said it too much, the real reason behind adding our positional is because other community did complain about the lack of positional for us. that the truth. you don't change the design of a jobs after more of 6 month for other reason.

Clearly I am just dreaming here... positionals will happen, and if they are like MNK or how they were for DRG... it could be sad... but Im hoping they impress me.

if the positional is the same amount than monk, most of the ninja will drop
if the positional is like what was the dragoon before... same.

what astonished me is the fact that instead to make the jobs more fun and appealing.... they are making it more frustrating and unpleasant. it's dumb!
i have never seen that before, i have seen jobs too powerfull get a nerf into the damage or the speed at which the skill can come out, but never i have seen a jobs be nerfed in this way. never seen a jobs get more restriction about it way to be played. how you can make people want to play ninja, when Dragoon and monk will be far easier to be played and more important less frustrating!

[Oboros]

My biggest issue with the positonals is the fact that trick attack is our current positional and it's Off the GCD. Let's say Spinning edge is flank and so is shadow fang it will be extremely tight and annoying to go flank > back as your ogcd > flank again.
Having to do that in a high stress moment during a raid while dodging/mechanics will be really difficult imo.
Imagine if steel peek was flank and howling fist was rear? Monks would really be unhappy. I just think having ogcd with positionals is flawed it was fine since our weapon skills had none but now I have a bad feeling about it.

[silentwindfr]

My biggest issue with the positonals is the fact that trick attack is our current positional and it's Off then GCD. Let's say Spinning edge is flank and so is shadow fang it will be extremely tight and annoying to go flank > back as your ogcd > flank again.
Having to do that in a high stress moment during a raid while dodging/mechanics will be really difficult imo.
Imagine if steel peek was flank and howling fist was rear? Monks would really be unhappy. I just think having ogcd with positionals is flawed it was fine since our weapon skills had none but now I have a bad feeling about it.

exactly, ninja was not means to get positional, and it can be feeled into the design. the combo system is worked in a way to make it complexe by itself if you add the ninjutsu at it. the combo is not fluid, and the mudra lag makeall this a frustrating experience, that the main reason of people dropping of the jobs. instead to adress this trouble... they did decide to add on top of this... positional. and if that wasn't enough, they add a third finish after gust slash. when already we can't add another third skill combo into our cycle. exept if we have a warrior that do storm's eye for us. the only way to add this skill... is to drop aeolian edge, our main finisher as dps.

what?!? how this was accepted as good? how this stuff was tested for be allowed to be added to our tool? because i really want to meet the one that did decide it was good to add this... because... i want to know if this person play ninja... if he did really try the jobs. because soo far i have seen nothing but... sorry for hard word, but dumb idea throw at us without even a concern about the big picture.

instead to focus on make us more deep in our originality, they did decide to add positional to us, while taking out from dragoon! for god sake! i'm almost surprise they haven't decided to add positional to our ninjutsu... maybe it's better i don't say it too loud or they will think it's a brillant idea!

ps: i will never say it enough, but the number of ninja playing will drop more with positional added. even if you only take in account the people that did choose this jobs because it was allowing them to play a melee without positional.... the number will drop and after a time, the number of people frustrated by this decision will be added to the count. all i see is a poor decision that will affect us in a very bad way. and maybe it's the time for them to listen to the people that do play the jobs. and instead to nerf us to work on us and wake up of them daydream and notice that the jobs have trouble that need to be adressed and that the jobs is far to be not needing any change!


pss: for the need to talk about positional into ninja, if they want to add it... to our GCD weaponskill, they need to rework the whole combo we do have. and stop to add more combo branching from the same skill.
they need to add another starter and more important, they need to complet the shadowfang combo. and even with this, they will still need to take out the positional of the out gcd skill TA/SA for make it viable.
finally, they need to rework the whole ninjutsu experience for make it more easy to handle while doing positional. because we can't respect positional+avoid enemy AoE while doing 2-4 action in less of 2.5 second (actually it's more 2.05 second) . we are not god.

[Zamii]

i'm not sure make the ninja go with the blm acc will affect anything, i'm curious to see what you really means by this. since ninja most skill are weaponskill and then recquire the same acc than dragoon and monk.

let me explain a little further then, accuracy requirements are brocken up into 3 sections for each boss, frontal, flank and rear.
the reasoning behind monk and dragoon using the flank accuracy is because well you need to hit your flank positionals.
casting classes however are considered to always hit the rear of a target, this allows them to use lower accuracy, with the exception of summoner which has diminished values toward its pet.

what makes ninja different to the other melle is it doesnt have any flank positionals (currently) which means you can position yourself behind the boss at all times without a lose in dps due to missing positionals, this then allows you to use the rear, or BLM, accuracy cap.

[DGladius]

There are plenty fights where you won't be able to stay at the rear at all times so ninjas should have their accuracy capped for flank anyways. You sure as hell don't wanna be missing any attacks thus losing dps.

[Atreides]

There are plenty fights where you won't be able to stay at the rear at all times so ninjas should have their accuracy capped for flank anyways. You sure as hell don't wanna be missing any attacks thus losing dps.

That.
No melee can afford to miss a single GCD it always leads to a significant DPS loss.
Having Flank cap is a absolutely required.
It's like telling a Bard to just have enough for the rear.