The Ninja Superthread

[silentwindfr]

all depend of which skill and where are the positional.
i explain myself, as monk you can design 2 type of combo, one for the flank, one for the back. you will move from side to back every 2-4 skill.
the trouble here with the ninja is if spinning edge and the finisher of the combo have a different positional, it will be a pain, since all our combo is coming from this skill!
- Spinning edge>shadowfangs
- Spinning edge>guts slash>dancing edge
- Spinning edge>guts slash>Aeolian edge
- Spinning edge>guts slash>skill of futon refresh.

why do the monk have a system fluid? because he don't have 2 starter of combo, like the dragoon!
- monk: bootshine (back) and dragon kick (flank)
- dragoon: True Thrust and impulse drive, note that dragoon had him starter changed and the rear positional from impulse drive was simply removed.

all combo of the ninja begin with Spinning edge and from the start it's a trouble! it show how the combo system of the ninja is limited! it can't be fluid, because instead to give us tool for make 2 combo, we do have 1 combo with a lot of branch... and now i don't think that add positional as recquirement for increase futon is a solution. since from the start positional is not adapted for the combo system of ninja! ninja combo system will force us to move every 1-2 skill.

without a deep rework of the ninja, add positional to previous skill is simply make jobs more broken and complicate than really fun. we already have one of the only system that can make us fail our skill (mudra) and the only positional that are totally unforgiving (trick attack, if you are not in the back, the debuff is not there) on top of that we do have one of the most limited combo system for the melee.
it do work now, because we don't have positional, we can manage to get our cycle work somehow... but the jobs is not fluid or smooth in the control. why that? because they try to make 2 system work together... when one is broken (mudra) and even them admit that they don't know how fix it. and the other is extremely limited, offering no real freedom for add more skill in the futur.

what is bothering, it's, the fact that all this point was already mentioned many time and not only by me. indeed i love ninja, i still play it. but let's be honest, the number of ninja played is dropping fast. because, people notice all the error of design and with the recent announcement, how you want to motivate people to play the jobs that need to be worked on...when Yoshida himself say... that we don't need to have stuff be added or changed exept add more limitation.

ps: positional mustn't be added to ninja, and if they do it, i think they will take it out fast or the jobs will be abandoned and only played by a small number of fan.

[Zamii]

ninja is only having positionals added to some skills, not all of them, i'de be willing to bet its only on the combo finishers, ie Aeolean edge and Dancing edge

[silentwindfr]

let's hope you are right, but even with this, i feel the ninja need more work over the combo system than simply add positional, i will never say it enough it's the easy way to add complexe gameplay to a jobs.
without forget that SE are quite rude and insulting to the player that did choose ninja because of the lack of positional!

and one more point, how they will add it? the one like trick attack that simply don't add debuff if you are not in the right position or the one like the monk?
too much unknow... Yoshida presentation of the black mage was extremely long over a very simple system, when the ninja will have needed more explanation since the core mechanic of the combo system was changed.

[Zamii]

trick attack does 200 potency if my memory serves when it misses the positional instead of 400, but either way, SE seems to be going for more of a monk style of positional moves now (lower potency but buff/debuff still takes effect) on missed positionals, either way it shouldnt make a difference in the grand scheme of things, just hit the positionals and you'll have nothing to worry about :P

[DGladius]

trick attack does 200 potency if my memory serves when it misses the positional instead of 400, but either way, SE seems to be going for more of a monk style of positional moves now (lower potency but buff/debuff still takes effect) on missed positionals, either way it shouldnt make a difference in the grand scheme of things, just hit the positionals and you'll have nothing to worry about :P

Trick attack does 240 potency with no bonus 10% vulnerability when you miss the positional. I certainly hope the new positional moves added will just be more potency bonus.

[silentwindfr]

exept trick attack missed positional = 60 second lost since the debuff will not be placed on the monster.
not without forget that you seems to ignore the fact that ninja combo system is not adapted to positional, since we will still begin our combo with the same freaking skill. instead to develop it for make it viable for positional, they did decide to add it for no good damn reason. explain something, why add a positional to the ninja, while taking out most of the positional from the dragoon? because impulse drive and Disembowel had positional... me all i see it's a way to place more restriction on the ninja, while making the dragoon more interesting.

everything they have done to the dragoon was for make it more lovable. more option, while adding more and more restriction to the ninja. worst i'm scared to see the potency of the two new skill in 4th position of combo behind full thrust and chaos thrust. i don't say that ninja will be low in dps (even if keep the dps to the max will be more complexe and will ask far more skill than with monk and dragoon) but god! i don't understand what they try to accomplish with the ninja!

Trick attack does 240 potency with no bonus 10% vulnerability when you miss the positional. I certainly hope the new positional moves added will just be more potency bonus.

exept the potency bonus, will not be bonus... the skill they will change will still be there without heavenward, then for keep the balance like we have now... this skill will loose dps if you can't match the positional. the dps with positional will be the one we have without it actually!

wake up guys, the positional is not a boost, it was clearly announced like a restriction over the ninja, because: only tank attack head-on... god this excuse is the worst ever they have give us!

[Atreides]

One of many reasons why I'm switching back to monk in heavensward, the mudra system is complex enough and I don't need unnecessarily added positionals on top of that.
The fact that EU servers are still a thing of the future doesn't help, so I'd have to deal with mudra lag still and get slapped with positionals, while Monks and Dragoons get those amazing changes that just makes you drool.
Back to muscle memory Monk with every buff that I ever wanted for that job.

[Alahra]

I'm the other way, I find NIN far simpler to play than MNK. Since they're adding more things to manage for maximum efficiency on MNK, I'm more than happy to take some positionals and a rotation that's somewhat more variable for NIN. I have a feeling the Huton refresh/extend will just be swapped in for an Aeolian Edge when we need it, though we'll have to see the exact amount to be sure. I wouldn't be surprised if there's more to this three-hit WS than they've let on as well.

[silentwindfr]

Alahra, i can't simply blindly hope that everything will be fine... the rotation of the ninja will become far less variable, actually it's not variable at all. actually what make look like variable it's because of the mudra lag, creating unstability into the cycle.

the monk are quite simple to play, no unknow, no skill that can fail because of the lag and the positional plus the stance system work perfectly together. the cycle is quite simple when you are on the flank you do a combo and another on the rear. actually if the monster don't move much, you don't move that much.
the new skill added are mainly out of Global cooldown capacity, what was lacking the monk.

mark my word, the ninja with positional and the new skill added, will be far more complex to play, not in the good sense of the word, but in the sense that it will be not fluid or smooth... it's not without reason that a lot of ninja are worried and bothered by the announcement of the add of positional or the sole fact to add another finisher after gust slash.

[Karasumori]

Can anyone manage to post me the BiS list for 2.5? I've searched this forum and the sub reddit and for some reason any links to Ariyala's won't work. They just time out. Don't know what's going on.