The broken FFXIV Holy trinity

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Mass Pulling of Tanks is a skill of the tank and healer. You get rewarded for being good. Its a good thing, not a bad thing.

If you want to design a zone that punishes such things, it should be a contested dungeon, one that is shared to the server.

Also, you don't even have to have more damage. Why not add boss mechanics to mobs? Or interesting mechanics like call for help.

[Mercuito]

If played at launch, we know that the trinity was doing fine in dungeons. The dungeon AK at 2.0 launch, before the nerf, was way hard and even harder with only darklight at best. There was no pulling the entire room. Long after we overgeared it, they decided to nerf it *then* because people thought it still was too hard.

The problem isn't it's "broken," its the fact that people complained and told SE to break it. It's our fault. It's what we wanted.

We should be careful what we wish for, we might get it. Now all lvl50 dungeons are cakewalks. The healer can die at like 90% on a boss fight and you can make it with maybe a blm casting a cure occasionally and still win. That's the game we are in now.

This ^ is what i'm saying.

[Everdark]

Hey maybe your right.

But come on haven't you noticed the mass pulling done by tanks in the high level dungeons. You must have at least noticed that.

Thats over gearing. Try doing those mass pulls with gear at the minimum ilvl and that's simply not viable.

[SuzakuCMX]

in FFXI and in a lot of other game even with the best gear in the game you can't just take on 15 mobs and aoe them down. Actually i dps ninja. Here is what you do to aoe. Huton->Kassatu->Doton->Spam death blossom until you can cast either doton or maybe katon depending on the situation. Most of the time you're pressing death blossom. Yes it is one button and yes i do perform in high numbers. What else is there to do. The game design is bad with regards to mobs and it's starting to show with player habits

Why would you use Huton for AoE instead of Doton > Kassatsu > Katon

[Lusavari]

FFXI is a completely different game in which the focus is 1 mob vs. 1 party/alliance. FFXIV was designed for multiple monster fights. It also occurs to me that you don't realize how speed runs work. When you have to grind dungeons over and over again, and you're as over geared as most players are for them.... Or you're grinding for a zodiac, you don't wanna do the individual pulls over and over again. Doing the mass pulls is more interesting, and it's what most of us want.


DPS taking Enmity means the DPS is either more geared than the tank, and Except for Monks and Ninjas... All of us have a way to deal with that. Either Elusive Jump or Quelling Strikes. I've tanked Titan Hard on Dragoon while I was grinding lights on my Novus. Both tanks were 2 weeks into the game, and didn't even/barely broke the 5,000 HP range. Meanwhile, my DRG with HP gear can get over 8,000, and with Echo I had 10,000. After some failed attempts, the White Mage just said "Let's have Vesper tank... She can actually hold hate." We actually won that attempt. The brand new tanks in bare minimum gear had no hope of holding enmity against anyone.

That said, Tanks have an enmity advantage in a speed run even ungeared. Since enmity is spread out, it's harder for AoEing DPS to actually take enmity from multiple targets, unless a BLM Triple Flares as their 1st action. This also extends to bosses because DPS can use their enmity decrease skills to let a tank keep enmity since boss fights are short. Since most tanks are well geared, this is rarely an issue though. This really isn't a problem in the community, and no tank is FORCING the DPS to do these things. It's the EXPECTATION. I think the OP just doesn't like speed runs. That's fine, but you need to find a like minded group of people then whose time you're not going to waste going one pull at a time. If you watch the evolution of a lot of runs, the pulls get bigger with item levels. In Pharos Sirius it's still really hard to make the first giant pull and live. The Vul Up makes the tank die really fast. Brayflox's 1st pull has gone from 2-3 pulls to just 1.

Also, if your DPS are only using 1 button... There's a problem. Black mages should have Fire II, Flare, Convert, X-Ether, The skill to flip atherial allignment (name slips my mind at this post), and a Blizzard spell in their AoE rotation... Bards should have at least 3 skills in their rotation. Dragoons should have Heavy Thrust, Ring of Thorns, Doom Spike, and Dragon Fire Dive in theirs....

[Mercuito]

Mass Pulling of Tanks is a skill of the tank and healer. You get rewarded for being good. Its a good thing, not a bad thing.

If you want to design a zone that punishes such things, it should be a contested dungeon, one that is shared to the server.

Also, you don't even have to have more damage. Why not add boss mechanics to mobs? Or interesting mechanics like call for help.

Hi there

I believe you are a bit miss guided.

1. There are several skills involved in tanking and holding hate. However running into a group of 20 mobs and maybe poping cooldowns and then spamming your aoe taunt is not skill.
2. I don't understand why you think simply increasing damage is not good enough. It's so simple and it solves the problem for all mobs and all classes in one go. Adding boss mechanics is such a complex way of solving the problem which might not work and will take a lot of work. My solution can be done in 1 afternoon.

[RiceisNice]

...

You have to look at the dungeons relative to other dungeons and required things tied to it , not by itself. Prime example would be pharos. It was significantly harder than the other two dungeons in the same tier, for the exact same rewards. AK was required for relic quest which would've fallen behind as content got further, to the point that no one really gave a shite about AK unless it's the roulette (and we still see this now in regards to chimera and hydra)

1. There are several skills involved in tanking and holding hate. However running into a group of 20 mobs and maybe poping cooldowns and then spamming your aoe taunt is not skill.
2. I don't understand why you think simply increasing damage is not good enough. It's so simple and it solves the problem for all mobs and all classes in one go. Adding boss mechanics is such a complex way of solving the problem which might not work and will take a lot of work. My solution can be done in 1 afternoon.

[/QUOTE]

1. Neither is taking 3 mobs at a time and letting them hit your face. Even if you were to increase their damage, and unless its a signifcant amount (I'm talking tank buster levels like flatten or critical rip), the healer is going to either fall asleep or start dpsing because it's very little damage (which...breaks the holy trinity concept since healers are dpsing now)
2. Forecast what damage increasing does. Do you want it to do enough damage enough to the point that we can only pull 2-3 at a time even if we're overgeared? If so, what about players who aren't overgeared? Not to mention this slows down the dungeon significantly and it just becomes tedious. If it gets to the point that we need ot use cooldowns, that's even worse esp if you're a warrior because those are minutes apart, again slowing down the run for really no good reason.

[Mercuito]

Why would you use Huton for AoE instead of Doton > Kassatsu > Katon

cos Huton reduces skill cooldown meaning i can get more Death blossoms out.

[Nektulos-Tuor]

Hi there

I believe you are a bit miss guided.

1. There are several skills involved in tanking and holding hate. However running into a group of 20 mobs and maybe poping cooldowns and then spamming your aoe taunt is not skill.
2. I don't understand why you think simply increasing damage is not good enough. It's so simple and it solves the problem for all mobs and all classes in one go. Adding boss mechanics is such a complex way of solving the problem which might not work and will take a lot of work. My solution can be done in 1 afternoon.

I see you don't play a tank Sir. To survive such encounters you need to manage all of your cooldowns and make sure they are all up in order. "Mashing" them tells me you don't know a THING your talking about. You have to manage your CDs perfectly, and then you have to hope said mobs are DEAD before you run out of CDs.

[Tiqa]

Why would you use Huton for AoE instead of Doton > Kassatsu > Katon

Because of:

in FFXI and in a lot of other game even with the best gear in the game you can't just take on 15 mobs and aoe them down. Actually i dps ninja. Here is what you do to aoe. Huton->Kassatu->Doton->Spam death blossom until you can cast either doton or maybe katon depending on the situation. Most of the time you're pressing death blossom. Yes it is one button and yes i do perform in high numbers. What else is there to do. The game design is bad with regards to mobs and it's starting to show with player habits