The broken FFXIV Holy trinity

[Stanelis]

That's called Speed Run, who wants to spend thirty minutes to an hour in a dungeon that people are only doing to cap their tomes?

I do, but not when we are required to farm dungeons hundred of times (like for the relic weapon). Also if the dungeons involved exploration, it wouldn't be a problem.

[AzraelX]

The holy trinity is broken, yes, but the symptoms OP described are not the ones I see as the signs of that. Where I see the holy trinity being broken is healers being expected to DPS, tanks being expected to DPS, DPS being expected to tank and raise....... It's like we're just leaving the "roles" behind altogether.

I think the Devs didn't want healers to DPS- Yoshi mentioned this in an interview) BUT they found out in the FCoB raids Helaers were dpsing! they were shocked. so To even the dps capabilities between scholar Wht mage.. they game more DPS abilities to WHM Mag to meet how players were playing in end game content.

I don't see it broken. I tihnk mobs hit hard enough AT APPROPRIATE level! They will be options to play content at lowest ilevel so Op[ will get what he wants.

[Kuroyasha]

The holy trinity is broken, yes, but the symptoms OP described are not the ones I see as the signs of that. Where I see the holy trinity being broken is healers being expected to DPS, tanks being expected to DPS, DPS being expected to tank and raise....... It's like we're just leaving the "roles" behind altogether.

NOPE! Healers actually aren't expected to dps. That came from the community.

Yoshida: "Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set.

Certainly for people who are at world's first level, their goal is to clear it at as low an item level as possible, lower than the one assumed during development. So if you look at the fight and figure out that if it's not numerically possible to clear with four DPS and tanks, you'll need to make up the gap with DPS from healers. Then when those publish clear videos and other people see the healers DPSing, they might think that healers need to be DPSing even though its a situation that only arose because their clear would have otherwise been impossible. While we could take this into account, and assume a different item level in the next update which would then make it impossible to clear even with the healer DPS, we'd eliminate this type of play for highly skilled players who use communication, items, and a high level of understanding to come up with those last second clears. That would be a tough decision to make, so I still think it should be up to each party's own plans.

This is also one of the reasons we decided to implement both a normal and savage version of Alexander. Once again, healer DPS was not included in the development team's calculation as it was for other jobs, so you should just think of healer DPS as a last way to get your overall party's DPS up to where it needs to be."

As you can see, healer dps isn't taken into account in the design. People saw world class skilled players do it and followed. Ofc it's efficient and effective, but I'm only arguing the initial point. Tank dps is of course because tanking involves actually hitting the boss continually. Now if bosses actually did take into account dps good healers can do? Ohhhh we'd have a whole new ballgame in the overall difficulty.


To address OP point. I think the problem is by the time new dung get released we already are way above ilvl. Furthermore, when we do get a decent challenge people complain about it til it gets the hammer (pharos sirius). I agreed when Yoshi mentioned complaints of the rewards not being worth the effort of Pharos Sirius. I just thought they would up the reward to meet the challenge, not reduce the challenge to meet the reward.

[KisaiTenshi]

NOPE! Healers actually aren't expected to dps. That came from the community.

Yoshida: "Yes. Since all DPS jobs will be increasing up through level 60, it makes sense to have the white mage's DPS extend by a proportional amount as well. For development, such as with Bahamut's Coils, the development team assumes what the item level should be for general equipment on players when they clear a raid. They sum up the basic DPS for four DPS and tanks at that assumed item level and cut that by about 10-15% for the minimum clear DPS. Healer DPS is not taken into account when this is set."

As you can see, healer dps isn't taken into account in the design. People saw world class skilled players do it and followed. Ofc it's efficient and effective, but I'm only arguing the initial point. Tank dps is of course because tanking involves actually hitting the boss continually. Now if bosses actually did take into account dps good healers can do? Ohhhh we'd have a whole new ballgame in the overall difficulty.


To address OP point. I think the problem is by the time new dung get released we already are way above ilvl. Furthermore, when we do get a decent challenge people complain about it til it gets the hammer (pharos sirius). I agreed when Yoshi mentioned complaints of the rewards not being worth the effort of Pharos Sirius. I just thought they would up the reward to meet the challenge, not reduce the challenge to meet the reward.

There are no less than 6 threads on the healer forum with people flipping their lid that they can no longer push the "healers must dps or they are lazy" argument from this article.

And I've been getting the worst sense of deja vu every time someone quotes Yoshida now, because it spread out over so many threads.

[Cynfael]

...can no longer push the "healers must dps or they are lazy" argument from this article.

Sorry to break this to you, but it remains lazy for healers to fail to contribute DPS as they are able. Refusing to learn this skill because healers are virginal and shouldn't have to sully themselves with DPS also constitutes laziness.

For perhaps the third time or so, I plainly explain that the only thing Yoshida communicates in this article is that healer DPS is not taken into account when setting minimum DPS clear requirements in raids. Everything else you and certain other people have been pulling from this article wasn't actually written or even implied.

[SarcasmMisser]

There are no less than 6 threads on the healer forum with people flipping their lid that they can no longer push the "healers must dps or they are lazy" argument from this article.

And I've been getting the worst sense of deja vu every time someone quotes Yoshida now, because it spread out over so many threads.

Actually they are flipping their lid to your perplexing posts where you are utterly adamant on ways healers must play and you ran away when you couldn't adequately justify it with your laminated copy of Yoshida's comment on DPS in raids (which you don't do).

I'm confused about this whole thing because I follow the min maxing conversation and I don't recall myself or anyone ever asking yoshida how we should play our jobs, it's the players that maximize the potential of jobs not the devs and thus it's the players who are the authority. I don't see how a commentary on raid tuning changes what we consider optimal, what if we want to clear content before having they gear they intended it?

I should point out though that it's only you who literally thinks people should be forced to play a certain way, I really don't care about how others play. I have reasoned opinions which I will share when solicited for advice, but otherwise I have a high tolerance of other players in easily DFed content. In 8 man raids in my own static or similar circles I'd care but given that you haven't even cleared t5 I wouldn't encounter you parsecs from content with actual standards, so what's your horse in this race? You're practically being the strawman elitist except for the opposite cause.

[Onikimaru]

when we do get a decent challenge people complain about it til it gets the hammer (pharos sirius)

This community complains INSTANTLY when something is "too hard" or can't be completed straight away. It made me so angry when people thought the FINAL boss of ARR shouldn't be strong. Like why?, why should the last boss of the game be a joke?. A dragon the size of a skyscraper should be a huge threat to the warriors of light and the people of the two nations, but nooo nerfy nerf nerf...and now going into alexander HM, there will be no surprises. Unlike coil which had mystery behind it...

[Nadirah]

Gonna sink your ship on wow's mythic dungeons. They're still aoeable in as little as lfr gear.

All they did was up numbers.

[Nadirah]

There is nothing wrong with housing in this game. If you make housing cheap for everyone, then nothing but bots will fill them up to flip them as another source of RMT. But that is not this thread.

--

Wait what? EQ2 has instanced housing for everyone of all sizes and shapes and one of the biggest mmo housing communities on the planet.

Making housing easy to get doesn't automatically make bots nab them. Noninstanced housing with a limited number of plots is what does it.

I want to be able to garden. Average members don't get to use the plots here at my fc house. I'd just use a planter in my room... Oh wait.

[UltimateAoe2]

NOPE! Healers actually aren't expected to dps. That came from the community.

then why do we have cleric stance.