1vs1 Duel Battles

[jinda]

cevearthu your pros and cons is merely a reflection of your neglect to 1 vs 1. the feature has a lot to offer my friend. you just have to step out of your comfort zone.

[CeveArthu]

cevearthu your pros and cons is merely a reflection of your neglect to 1 vs 1. the feature has a lot to offer my friend. you just have to step out of your comfort zone.

Provide some examples, the other guy made some good ones (for example, making 1v1s just like WoWs one where you challange people outside of instances is a good one)

[Cidel]

cevearthu your pros and cons is merely a reflection of your neglect to 1 vs 1. the feature has a lot to offer my friend. you just have to step out of your comfort zone.

Actually, no. He brought up some very good drawbacks that makes 1 v 1 duels unappealing. The big two being obvious unbalanced jobs and duel flagging being likely used as another form of harassment (not to mention there is a pretty big demographic of players playing this game that don't want PvP to encroach on their PvE experience).

The devs haven't even properly balanced their current PvP dynamics; I do not expect them to rebalance everything from the ground up for 1 v 1 duels.

Why do topics about Duels always fall into debates about balance... Who cares about balance with Duels?

Balance is a very big deal for players who would take 1v1 PvP seriously. Otherwise everyone would flock to the most over-powered job; and that would be the universal excuse as to why that job would ever win.

[CeveArthu]

The devs haven't even properly balanced their current PvP dynamics; I do not expect them to rebalance everything from the ground up for 1 v 1 duels.

I respectfully disagree on this bit, lvl 50 wolves den balance is pretty good right now, its the main competitive format unlike the three way turkey shoot of frontlines

[Cidel]

I respectfully disagree on this bit, lvl 50 wolves den balance is pretty good right now, its the main competitive format unlike the three way turkey shoot of frontlines

I really don't consider healers to be balanced right now. Bards also have their damaged nerfed at point-blank (unless this is gone in WD). There is no reason why caster-induced Sleep/Bind last as long as they do... Are just a few things off the top of my head.

[Nalien]

Balance is a very big deal for players who would take 1v1 PvP seriously. Otherwise everyone would flock to the most over-powered job; and that would be the universal excuse as to why that job would ever win.

And? Provided 1v1s are open world and reward-less, players can balance matches themselves if they want to take a match seriously. If I want a serious match-up, I'll organize it with whoever I intend to fight. If I just want to test my skills on Black Mage against any DPS, I'll do just that and treat it as a learning experience for real matches in Wolves' Den/Frontlines.

and duel flagging being likely used as another form of harassment (not to mention there is a pretty big demographic of players playing this game that don't want PvP to encroach on their PvE experience).

Slap 1v1 requests behind a PvP Rank requirement and problem solved. Shit heads who just want to troll probably can't even get to Rank 5, and thus can't send requests. PvE players who don't care about PvP certainly wont get to Rank 5, and thus can't be sent requests. Only people who'd have to put up with such harassment would be people who went for the Glamours alone, but... Well... We have a Blacklist and GMs, why is this even a point? People who want to harass already can, trade blocks for example. Anyone looking to harass, with such a requirement in place, would have a hard enough time that it certainly wouldn't become a popular form of harassment. You can trade block anyone anywhere. You'd really have to go out of your way to find someone you can 1v1 and start harassing them, and again, you can just Blacklist such shitheads.

[Cidel]

And? Provided 1v1s are open world and reward-less, players can balance matches themselves if they want to take a match seriously.

1) If they are rewardless, they will mostly serve as e-peen stroking/ bother people.
2) No, players really can't balance most match-ups themselves without handicapping their opponent or themselves. "Make your attacks not interrupt my casting." "No healing yourself with spells because I don't have those." No really, I want to know what "balancing themselves" entails.
3) That's almost like releasing face-roll end-game content and telling the players to find ways to gimp themselves so that it's challenging.
4) Some people will take duels seriously and refuse to gimp themselves for balance. Or better yet, "cheat" (which is subjective).

Slap 1v1 requests behind a PvP Rank requirement and problem solved... Only people who'd have to put up with such harassment would be people who went for the Glamours alone,

And then it becomes more cumbersome than I'm willing to bet the devs care to do. There will be of course people who don't want to 1 v 1 for their own personal reasons, not just poor unfortunate souls who liked the PvP sets. There's also a lot of people simply win-trading in WD for the challenge log.

We have a Blacklist and GMs, why is this even a point? People who want to harass already can, trade blocks for example.

That still leaves much ambiguity on the GM's part if you foresee it being a form of harassment like a trade-block. "I just wanted to duel him." Harassment for me being more along the lines of personal vendettas or public slandering. True, we already have this, but why add more?

And yes, I'm aware of the Black list, but I'm under the influence that it's there solely as our one RMT deterrent. /sarcasm.

[Nalien]

1) If they are rewardless, they will mostly serve as e-peen stroking/ bother people.

Or, you know, using them to practice in a way which doesn't negatively impact team based PvP, or just as something to do with friends while waiting between queues. I'd certainly rather PvP while waiting to PvP. Actually I'd be more willing to wait on that queue if I could PvP during it. If that same is true for others, that would have a positive impact on queue times.

Also, how would they bother people if there was a restriction on who you can send requests to? Seriously...

2) No, players really can't balance most match-ups themselves without handicapping their opponent or themselves. "Make your attacks not interrupt my casting." "No healing yourself with spells because I don't have those." No really, I want to know what "balancing themselves" entails.

Players can balance matches themselves by not going into a obviously one sided Job match-up... How is that hard to understand? If you want a serious match, you're not going to go as something which is at a severe disadvantage to your opponent, not unless you're extremely confident. If you want a serious match you can very easily organize same verses same to see who is the better whatever.

3) That's almost like releasing face-roll end-game content and telling the players to find ways to gimp themselves so that it's challenging.

I don't even know what your point is here.

4) Some people will take duels seriously and refuse to gimp themselves for balance. Or better yet, "cheat" (which is subjective).

If someone is going to take duels so serious that they'd demand their opponent is at a disadvantage to them based on Job, well... They're a shithead. That isn't taking duels seriously, that's just giving yourself an advantage.

And then it becomes more cumbersome than I'm willing to bet the devs care to do. There will be of course people who don't want to 1 v 1 for their own personal reasons, not just poor unfortunate souls who liked the PvP sets. There's also a lot of people simply win-trading in WD for the challenge log.

How would it be more cumbersome if they put in less work? No rewards means less work. Why would people win trade duels if there is no rewards? Heck, they could literally just slap Duels behind Friend Requests and I'd be fine with that, more so than Mog Mail anyway. Personally I only really want to 1v1 friends to pass the time anyway. Easy enough to make friends with other PvPers to do the same, could still use it for serious challenges. Would prevent people from harassing with it as well, someone wants to be a shithead, unfriend them.

That still leaves much ambiguity on the GM's part if you foresee it being a form of harassment like a trade-block. "I just wanted to duel him." Harassment for me being more along the lines of personal vendettas or public slandering. True, we already have this, but why add more?

Well, above point aside... "I just wanted to duel him" isn't a defense when the person is harassing someone by sending requests ad nauseum and refusing to accept no for an answer. That is what I assume we all mean by "duel harasment", anyway. Something similar to what we get with Triple Triad where you can occasionally get the odd request isn't really harassment IMO. Either someone is aggressively seeking a match or they're not, it's pretty clear cut when someone is harassing.

[Cidel]

Or, you know, using them to practice in a way which doesn't negatively impact team based PvP, or just as something to do with friends while waiting between queues.

You can cherry-pick the good examples just as easily as I can find the negative. Either way, it's not a super-compelling argument.

Also, how would they bother people if there was a restriction on who you can send requests to? Seriously...

Seriously, I already covered that. Read again.

Players can balance matches themselves by not going into a obviously one sided Job match-up... How is that hard to understand? If you want a serious match, you're not going to go as something which is at a severe disadvantage to your opponent, not unless you're extremely confident. If you want a serious match you can very easily organize same verses same to see who is the better whatever.

Some people are going to die-hard one job and refuse to swap their job to give their opponent a handicap, and vice versa. You haven't played any competitive Fighting Games with people you don't know, have you? Oh, and same vs same really just works out if both players have the same job levelled.

I don't even know what your point is here.

That's fine, it shows me that you're not seeing the flaw in your own idea.

If someone is going to take duels so serious that they'd demand their opponent is at a disadvantage to them based on Job, well... They're a shithead. That isn't taking duels seriously, that's just giving yourself an advantage.

You're either missing the point here or trying to put words in my mouth.

Care to actually respond to the entirety of both my posts you quoted, rather than picking one sentence out and seemingly acting like the rest of the points I made aren't there? I've covered all this before...

Right back at you pal, your responses are incredibly idealistic and I can see you trying to dismiss my issues with simplistic answers with even more holes.

How would it be more cumbersome if they put in less work? No rewards means less work.

More cumbersome meaning the devs probably won't even put in the effort to do it if it gave no (worthwhile) rewards/ add systems just so people couldn't duel certain people. Come on, they haven't even given the community a lot of what we're asking for due to system limitations. I believe we already have a handful of things without worthwhile rewards in-game right now. And you know they probably won't add duels without some kind of ratio/achievement.

Why would people win trade duels if there is no rewards?

Now I know you're either not reading carefully or really misconstruing my points. I brought up WD win trades because it's not difficult for people not interested in PvP ranks to be over a certain rank (for your proposed rank restriction) simply getting free marks/points from the challenge log.

Heck, they could literally just slap Duels behind Friend Requests and I'd be fine with that

Literally the only reasonable thing I've gotten from you so far, since-

I only really want to 1v1 friends to pass the time anyway.

[Nalien]

Some people are going to die-hard one job and refuse to swap their job to give their opponent a handicap, and vice versa. You haven't played any competitive Fighting Games with people you don't know, have you? Oh, and same vs same really just works out if both players have the same job levelled.

And? What does that matter? If someone is that dedicated to a Job and they want a serious duel, they're still not going to opt to fight in an unbalanced match. If you want a serious match-up you're not going to be looking for one-sided matches. You're going to be looking for matches that are balanced. This isn't about giving their opponent a handicap, it's about having a balanced fight. Something like Black Mage verses Dragoon is not balanced. Anyone interested in a serious match is not going to be interested in that match-up to begin with. Others, like me, who want to practice might, but anyone looking for a serious challenge isn't. Not unless they're confident that they can take the Job at the disadvantage and win with it, in which case they're the one who has to deal with the imbalance, not the person they're challenging.

Right back at you pal, your responses are incredibly idealistic and I can see you trying to dismiss my issues with simplistic answers with even more holes.

I actually edited that out when you edited in a real response. Idealistic? Sure. You're issues? I don't see them. Harassment is a non-issue that is easily resolved, and never really an argument against implementing something (how are those "Don't add Vote Kick/Abandon because of harassment!" threads going? Oh right, they added that...). Balance is something players can take into their own hands, your idea that someone will be after a serious challenge and only ever want to be on one Job, going out of their way to challenge absolutely anybody, regardless of their opponents Job and how ridiculously easy that might make the match, is absurd to me. Anyone interested in a serious match isn't going to be interested in a one-sided match, because that isn't a serious match...

More cumbersome meaning the devs probably won't even put in the effort to do it if it gave no (worthwhile) rewards/ add systems just so people couldn't duel certain people. Come on, they haven't even given the community a lot of what we're asking for due to system limitations. I believe we already have a handful of things without worthwhile rewards in-game right now. And you know they probably won't add duels without some kind of ratio/achievement.

Maybe if a significant amount of work would have to go into 1v1s. Request interface? In place with Triple Triad. PvP Actions in select instances? Already in place with PvP in general/Wolves' Den Pier. Locking it behind Friendlist? Mog Mail already does that.

This would require next to no work to be implemented. What does it add? Instant gratification PvP, something this game desperately needs as far as PvP goes, given we currently have to wait an excess of 30 minutes to get into Frontlines.

You can cherry-pick the good examples just as easily as I can find the negative. Either way, it's not a super-compelling argument.

More like you can cherry-pick the negative examples as easily as I can the positive. We've just going to have to agree to disagree here.