Poll: Gear progression, horizontal or vertical?

[Krylo]

Snip

And yet you could have done more damage if you played your class properly AND used the right build instead of just doing one or the other. Figuring out the proper build, using math, as you say with obvious disdain, is part of being a skilled MMORPG player. Hell, it's part of being a skilled RPG player in general. But when your ability to hit certain DPS marks affects other people they're right to expect you to be doing everything you can to maximize that DPS. Even if you're hitting the checks in a sub-optimal build, that just means if you'd quit stubbornly using it and use something good your group would down the enemy faster leaving less room for mistakes all around, less room for wipes, less room for healers to have mana issues, etc. etc.

EVEN IF you can hit DPS checks in a sub-optimal build you still shouldn't do it. You're making life harder on everyone.

And that's the issue with horizontal progression. Even in RO there were certain card builds that were miles ahead of everything else. Dozens that are viable out of hundreds, and 1, maybe 2 or 3 out of those dozens for every class that was actually competitive for top place. The reason people used (and use) one of dozens was just because of how completely awful the drop chance for cards were, and how much they sold for on merchants sitting around in town (assuming you could even find one selling one of the BiS cards), and they interacted with each other such that you needed the whole set up.

There wasn't choice because 12 builds were equally viable. There was choice because getting the BiS required the equivalent of getting a 0.01% drop (At least some of, if not most of, would be from bosses) for every piece of gear you have.

There's no real choice in horizontal progression systems. It's just a more complicated more mathy vertical progression where you don't get an upgrade available every time new gear releases that's a lot more effort for the Devs trying to balance a bunch of sets at the same gear level to make the mathing harder.

[Aeyis]

And yet you could have done more damage would be more then enough.if you played your class properly AND used the right build instead of just doing one or the other. Figuring out the proper build, using math, as you say with obvious disdain, is part of being a skilled MMORPG player. Hell, it's part of being a skilled RPG player in general. But when your ability to hit certain DPS marks affects other people they're right to expect you to be doing everything you can to maximize that DPS.

Sorry, but ive never actually hit a mark where my performance was dragging down my raidgroup. Ive never felt the need to have stats boost me, as I've always preferred to rely on skill.

And no, I would not have performanced better as another spec perse. Because how well you perform depends in very large part on how much you enjoy playing that spec. If you dont enjoy the other spec you wont perform well.


Incidentally, obvious disdain? I would expect someone that considers ''the best'' to be the only viable option, to you know:
play the best.
For everyone that doesnt care to be ''the best'', I would think that simply doing well or decent (but importantly, have a good time) would be more then enough.

If everyone is giving 100% but you are only giving 75% because you want to play this way with this gear set... is it right that the rest of the people in your group have to suddenly do more then 100%? Because if they do not you don't win the fight?

The cat is bemused =-.-=

Ive always disliked that line of thought. Perhaps its because Ive always given 200%. If people give it their best, or even better despite playing a subpar spec, what does it matter? They are still third on dps. They are still that healer that might not have the best healing output, but is the girl whos saving everyone just before they would have died.

Playing something thats bad is not the same as playing something thats good but not the very best. Trying your hardest has little to do with your spec either.


To me I've always seen it as hypocrisy. Extremely rarely has it happend that someone making that argument actually performed better then me (regardless if my spec was best or only decent). And im by no means a world class player.
If your going to make a super Elite argument, atleast play like godlike elite? (is what I was thinking in those situations)
That wouldnt make the argument right, but atleast make it understandable.



What I always say: (but did not think up myself, atleast the first sentence )
Bring the performance, not the spec, not the class.
If its good enough to down the encounter on paper, then we will make it work and have a good time doing so because we are all playing what we enjoy playing.

[NadienKirisame]

stuff

Though I'm not making any elite argument nor am I telling anyone you must be pushing 200%. Do you know why? Because I don't need you to push 200% unless you have fun doing that and that is your thing then have fun with it. I do expect people to give a good run and I do expect people to have fun and put forth their best effort however if due to your choices in gear set up (because these look so UBER!!) you are actually pulling less then what you should be pulling and we can no longer win the fights and now no one else is having fun because of your choice... well not sure what to tell you maybe you need to think about others as well as your self when you are playing an MMO.

Also this is about gear and not skill and in some cases because you don't have the right gear even though your are super L337Z0RZssss skilled you still don't do half what others are doing... Should everyone just go "awww it is ok he was having fun even though we wiped 500 times because well he just couldn't put out enough because of the gear he had and we couldn't make up for that loss."

Also I'm the last one to tell someone how to play their character you can play how you wish but those other guys... yeah they probably wont let you play with them...

Also I have been in the situations before where we should not have won the fight we should have failed and hell everyone else was dead but me and I finished off the boss because well I just knew what the hell I was doing... Sometimes those moments should feel great but then you think... I really should not have had to do that we should have been fine and we should have had no issues but for some unknown reason this guy over here is only doing half of what the others are doing. You check that guy out and his spec is all odd and your not even sure how it even works and his gear is this mess of things you would never even think to put together. What do you do? Just let it go because you won in the end even though you know deep down you really would have lost?

Also because I didn't use also enough... >.>

The cat is bemused =-.-=

[Aeyis]

Though I'm not makingany elite argument nor am I telling anyone you must be pushing 200%.

Yet a little further in your post you say:

you are actually pulling less then what you should be pulling and we can no longer win the fights and now no one else is having fun because of your choice...

Make up your mind? Are you saying that people should play the absolute best possible or not? Because that second part of ''not performing well enough'' is exactly the opposite of my argument.
I was arguing that if someone brings enough to the fight to get it down (enough dps to down the boss before an enrage for example) then it does not matter one bit how they do it.
There is no ''not performing well enough'' in that argument, anywhere to be found.

well not sure what to tell you maybe you need to think about others as well as your self when you are playing an MMO.

Please reread what I posted. I think you find me even arguing that you dont think about others enough.


Let me say it in less then subtle words I used before:
Ive always brought the performance of an elite player (in wow, since I played the game a long time I became quite good at it).
Yet despite that I never expected others to perform at the same level (thats unreasonable to expect from people that didnt invest absurds amounts of time).
So I personally never care as long as I know people do their best, and as long as we can get the encounter down (or give a good try).

In the end what matters most is having fun. And you simply dont do that as much if you are playing something that you dont enjoy, but is forced upon you.

Why force someone that play something they greatly dislike, for a 5% increase? Playing something you dislike can give a way greater performance drop then 5%.



What always amused me is that over the years Ive seen a lot of people use your arguments. Yet they didnt play anywhere near ''the best'' themselves.

Why hold an elitist point of view if you cant even play like an elite?
You seem to be amused a lot in your posts, is it because you amuse yourself at your own irony?

Should everyone just go "awww it is ok he was having fun even though we wiped 500 times because well he just couldn't put out enough because of the gear he had and we couldn't make up for that loss."

I prefer to have fun and play well. Thats pretty standard at high levels of play in any game. Especially in encounters with more room for ''having fun''.


You strike me more and more as a ''fanboy'' of elitisme then an actual good player...

Also I'm the last one to tell someone how to play their character

Your posts are filled with you telling others how to play their character.

Also I have been in the situations before

And you are now going on a crusade against anyone that says ''I want to have fun''as a result, I get it.



But remember that having fun and playing well are 2 entirely different things.
Altho having fun does actually increase your performance by a lot.




Ps: Playing well is simply good enough to do the job, rather then ''the best''.
If you think otherwise then you have some insecurity issues.

Damn, people just can't ignore debate bait can they? I'll tally all the votes up every 24 hours and update the OP with a continual count, but shoot, so many people either starting debates or voting for silly options.

Well, how else to relieve boredom? Besides, once in a blue moon someone actually does increase their perspective. Sometimes. It does happen.

[Sapphic]

But remember that having fun and playing well are 2 entirely different things.
Altho having fun does actually increase your performance by a lot.

Maybe for you they are, many find fun in pushing their ability as much as they can, or optimising their build/rotations. I find challenging content where I have to fully push my playing ability to meet the requirements to progress and pass said content. Just because you don't doesn't mean everyone else doesn't, thinking that is just being egotitstical as if your opinion is universal.

Easy content I find dull.