Poll: Gear progression, horizontal or vertical?

[Aeyis]

Vertical progression is better... Though I love the argument that horizontal give you more choices. You mean the illusion of choice... because sure you may have 5 or 6 different chest pieces you could use but if you not using this one right here well your wrong!

Vertical sure there may not be many choices however you tend to not need to what to use because it is almost always the highest ilvl gear. I say almost because of how some games like WoW would put really good set bonuses on gear that even when they became outdated the set bonus still made it best to use for the most part.

Though you humans do love your illusions don't you...

The cat is bemused =-.-=

Take Ragnarok online: You could use about a dozen ''best'' items for each slot (specifically cards), several different builds for each class (that could play radically different).

How is that a mere illusion of choice?

Incidentally, in true horizontal progression you can make up your own mind to follow the ''meta'', or popular opinion on whats best.

Personal preference is irrelevant to the raiding communities.

I mentioned that example as a raid example. I often used less then ''best dps'' specs in a raiding enviroment in wow, including the (then) current hardest content.
Typically speaking nearly all specs were ''viable'' (well, from tbc and onwards, anyway), meaning you could perform well enough to take down the encounter with any spec.

I dunno, perhaps its because I feel that how well you play is foremost down to you as a player, rather then your ''build's limitations.

Seen any MRDs taking DPS slots in Coil runs?

Also, for the longest time, the only viable raiding spec for Mages was Arcane. Frost was the only viable PvP spec and Fire Mages were laughed at and scorned in ALL content.

When was that exactly? Im not sure when you started playing WoW, but Arcane, Frost and Fire all had very long periods of being on top. Ive played frost and arcane when they were considered the underdog.
Noone laughed at my dps tho.

Hell, even back in Burning Crusade, you NEVER saw an Arms Warrior outside of PvP, it was Fury or Protection or you got kicked.

Ive played a 2H enhancement shaman in early tbc (ssc specifically) and made it work (ie: viable dps). The problem is not with the stats, its with peoples attitudes.

A good of example of that would be when I rolled dual enhancement and elemental at different periods in TBC, and people were horrified. That is, untill they saw that they actually dealt really good damage.

If you want to use a Tier 2 set because you 'like' the bonuses over a Tier 3 set with mathematically superior bonuses, you will never see endgame content in your hypothetical scenario. Barring of course your own personal static where everyone involved is more concerned with playing their own way than winning in the most efficient way, like PuGs tend to do.

If you need math to win encounters for you, instead of skill; then I will agree with you that going ''the best'' is the only real thing to do.


According to your logic, people must absolutely hate and avoid making mistakes in a raid, since being anything but the ''the best'' is such a big deal. In reality however, even the best players will rarely play perfectly. (but down encounters anyway)
Which I think shows that ''the best'' isnt such as must have as is often believed.

[Garlyle]

Take Ragnarok online: You could use about a dozen ''best'' items for each slot (specifically cards), several different builds for each class (that could play radically different).

There were maybe a dozen slots and ways to build, yeah. And because of those there were also hundreds of things that you might look at, go "well that seems like a good idea", and end up with extremely subpar results.

That's the "illusion" - you have a lot of choice, but frankly, it's a lot of wrong choices. It matters a lot more in the modern style of MMORPG, which focuses on very strictly designed and tuned challenges as opposed to the sandbox nature of older MMORPGs.

[Zaft]

There were maybe a dozen slots and ways to build, yeah. And because of those there were also hundreds of things that you might look at, go "well that seems like a good idea", and end up with extremely subpar results.

That's the "illusion" - you have a lot of choice, but frankly, it's a lot of wrong choices. It matters a lot more in the modern style of MMORPG, which focuses on very strictly designed and tuned challenges as opposed to the sandbox nature of older MMORPGs.

This. The idea of choice is an illusion, because in the end, there is one superior choice for every situation. Now, there may be multiple choices for multiple situations. An example is Mage in WoW, where Fire is better for fights requiring movement, and Arcane is better for fights that allow you to be stationary. Certain talents are better for certain situations: Living Bomb is great for fights where it can be spread, Blast Nova is better for single targets. But in the end, one is clearly superior to the other, even if it's only by a smidgen.

You can choose to do something different, something unique, something radically different...but you're choosing to be wrong.

[NadienKirisame]

And you brought up RO...

Oh yeah there was so many bests in RO... Here let me toss some more clouds up on your head so you feel so much safer. Lets not even get into how long you had to grind away to even get some of those cards shall we. There also was a best set of cards to use when it came down to it and that is why everyone grinded away their lives to try and get those certain cards.

And yes you can follow the "meta" (not sure why I actually hate that word) or do your own thing as long and your own thing is over there... and away from this raid because they want you to have this because it is the best way to be set up for this... >.>

Really though both ways have issue and I'm not actually going to say vertical is all wonderful... But then I have played all those game and I have done all that stuff and you know vertical just feels better really and it is not so... illusiony (not even a word!) but you do have to worry about the power creep as someone else brought up.

The cat is bemused =-.-=

[Gamer3427]

And yes you can follow the "meta" (not sure why I actually hate that word) or do your own thing as long and your own thing is over there... and away from this raid because they want you to have this because it is the best way to be set up for this... >.>

I've always been curious why everyone has this attitude towards everything when it comes to games. The vast majority of people talk as though you have to do perfect, and have the perfect set up to run everything, and anything less than perfection means you're a "bad player", even if you're still doing well above and beyond what can work to accomplish the task at hand. Don't get me wrong, there are a few of us out there that actually play the game to enjoy it, and either help or at least tolerate people who are learning and testing how to play their way, but the vast majority of gamers seem to view the world in a black and white, "do it this way or you're doing it wrong", sort of way......

[NadienKirisame]

Stuff and things

I personally don't don't care if you are a bit off and I never said you had to be perfect. But then it isn't me that is really going to take that other guy in better optimal gear over you... Most of the time I just go with it when I used to lead raids and as long as things got done it didn't matter too much but then again as I said I'm not the one that really cares much as long as people are having fun and stuff is getting killed.

And it isn't really that black and white though some groups will be that way... but in the end you are either pulling your weight and helping things die or everyone else has to pickup the slack and try to push through. If everyone is giving 100% but you are only giving 75% because you want to play this way with this gear set... is it right that the rest of the people in your group have to suddenly do more then 100%? Because if they do not you don't win the fight?

The cat is bemused =-.-=

[Gamer3427]

Words.

I will say, I wasn't trying to single you out in particular. I just used your quote as it was the most readily available example. That being said, I've met more than a few people in the community, (here in particular), who will stand for little less than perfect. Those who quit on the first failed attempt at a boss or trial, those who kick people if they don't already know the run, and those who will vote to abandon if something goes slightly wrong because someone slipped up and a wipe happens. I've met quite a few players like this in here, and a visit to the forums of most popular games will show you that it's not limited to this game. A lot of people are becoming more obsessed with speed running everything just to get the loot, rather than actually enjoying the content they're running through.....

[NadienKirisame]

I know

I figured you where not directing it at me. Though the issue you are seeing is not just from vertical progression... I have seen the same stuff in horizontal progression games as well simply because this item that they want drops from this area and it will probably take 100 runs to get it so the faster they do it the sooner they can find the next part of the set they are trying to build. The vote abandon and dropping at the first wipe are other things that annoy me and I have had a few groups that some of my friends would be with me in and we would reject the abandon and say hey lets do this one more time and just watch for this or this and such and we would end up winning that pull. Just how it goes though...

I have also seen it in other games like XI where someone joined our group and when they got to the camp the leader started asking him about his gear and when the guy didn't have certain things he was kicked... of course that didn't work too well for that leader because I left right after and I was their healer.

These games take all kinds though you just have to do what you can...

The cat is bemused =-.-=

[Krylo]

Snip

And yet you could have done more damage if you played your class properly AND used the right build instead of just doing one or the other. Figuring out the proper build, using math, as you say with obvious disdain, is part of being a skilled MMORPG player. Hell, it's part of being a skilled RPG player in general. But when your ability to hit certain DPS marks affects other people they're right to expect you to be doing everything you can to maximize that DPS. Even if you're hitting the checks in a sub-optimal build, that just means if you'd quit stubbornly using it and use something good your group would down the enemy faster leaving less room for mistakes all around, less room for wipes, less room for healers to have mana issues, etc. etc.

EVEN IF you can hit DPS checks in a sub-optimal build you still shouldn't do it. You're making life harder on everyone.

And that's the issue with horizontal progression. Even in RO there were certain card builds that were miles ahead of everything else. Dozens that are viable out of hundreds, and 1, maybe 2 or 3 out of those dozens for every class that was actually competitive for top place. The reason people used (and use) one of dozens was just because of how completely awful the drop chance for cards were, and how much they sold for on merchants sitting around in town (assuming you could even find one selling one of the BiS cards), and they interacted with each other such that you needed the whole set up.

There wasn't choice because 12 builds were equally viable. There was choice because getting the BiS required the equivalent of getting a 0.01% drop (At least some of, if not most of, would be from bosses) for every piece of gear you have.

There's no real choice in horizontal progression systems. It's just a more complicated more mathy vertical progression where you don't get an upgrade available every time new gear releases that's a lot more effort for the Devs trying to balance a bunch of sets at the same gear level to make the mathing harder.

[Aeyis]

And yet you could have done more damage would be more then enough.if you played your class properly AND used the right build instead of just doing one or the other. Figuring out the proper build, using math, as you say with obvious disdain, is part of being a skilled MMORPG player. Hell, it's part of being a skilled RPG player in general. But when your ability to hit certain DPS marks affects other people they're right to expect you to be doing everything you can to maximize that DPS.

Sorry, but ive never actually hit a mark where my performance was dragging down my raidgroup. Ive never felt the need to have stats boost me, as I've always preferred to rely on skill.

And no, I would not have performanced better as another spec perse. Because how well you perform depends in very large part on how much you enjoy playing that spec. If you dont enjoy the other spec you wont perform well.


Incidentally, obvious disdain? I would expect someone that considers ''the best'' to be the only viable option, to you know:
play the best.
For everyone that doesnt care to be ''the best'', I would think that simply doing well or decent (but importantly, have a good time) would be more then enough.

If everyone is giving 100% but you are only giving 75% because you want to play this way with this gear set... is it right that the rest of the people in your group have to suddenly do more then 100%? Because if they do not you don't win the fight?

The cat is bemused =-.-=

Ive always disliked that line of thought. Perhaps its because Ive always given 200%. If people give it their best, or even better despite playing a subpar spec, what does it matter? They are still third on dps. They are still that healer that might not have the best healing output, but is the girl whos saving everyone just before they would have died.

Playing something thats bad is not the same as playing something thats good but not the very best. Trying your hardest has little to do with your spec either.


To me I've always seen it as hypocrisy. Extremely rarely has it happend that someone making that argument actually performed better then me (regardless if my spec was best or only decent). And im by no means a world class player.
If your going to make a super Elite argument, atleast play like godlike elite? (is what I was thinking in those situations)
That wouldnt make the argument right, but atleast make it understandable.



What I always say: (but did not think up myself, atleast the first sentence )
Bring the performance, not the spec, not the class.
If its good enough to down the encounter on paper, then we will make it work and have a good time doing so because we are all playing what we enjoy playing.