RIP Ninja

[Adire]

lol, no problem.

Basically, once positionals are added, they're not so much "positional bonuses" as they are "positional requirements" with penalties for missing them. I mean, one could try to say that TA has a "positional bonus" for attacking from behind, but considering that the difference between hitting the positional and not is basically the difference in just not using a ninjutsu for that 20 seconds, it's really more of a requirement. Once you have positionals, hitting all the positionals (or at least the vast majority) becomes the standard by which the class is balanced and judged. Same as how you don't balance DRG off of the guy who stands next to the tank spamming uncombo'd Full Thrust and not using any CDs. >_>

We're in agreement then

[Spiritreaver1217]

While I highly doubt it would be such, I will laugh if it turns out all the new positionals are actually just back ones like Trick, with similar large increases to potency, in part because that would give a very good reason for the aggro dump too: Do lots of damage, dump on tank as soon as it turns around, do more big damage since its back is turned again.

Again I doubt it would be that simple, but would laugh.

Honestly, i have been and continue to laugh at the reaction myself.

I mean seriously, where do the majority of non-tank physical attacking classes usually hang out during a fight at present? The positional req being added to some NIN moves won't be from the front-which leaves either flank(the side) or the rear-again where we are standing anyway.

Which in actual gameplay means all a NIN has to do to hit the positional req is stand in one of 2 spots(the breaks in the mob targeting circle-which, for the 3rd time now, is where most of us should be standing anyways to avoid frontal and rear cleaves) and make a single small move back or forth into either the flank or into the rear.

And that's gonna 'destroy the spirit of the job' or 'homogenize' the job or <add catchy forum euphemism here> NIN as a job...

So yeah, still don't buy it. And still laughing at the continued groupthink overreaction.

[Kaze3434]

snip.

im trying to have the whole thing center around having positionals, not someone being quite frankly, stupid. the thing that is mostly annoying about this(the people saying Nin will die with positonals) is that no one knows exactly what is coming.

[Krylo]

not someone being quite frankly, stupid

Be the change you want to see in the world. I suggest you start by not claiming that positionals are 'not required'. It's not the case for Dragoon. It's definitely not the case for Monk. It's not even the case for Ninja's two positionals (really 1 because you wouldn't use sneak attack over trick attack outside of solo content). Everything is balanced around the classes hitting most of their positionals.

When they're added to ninja they will be required. Just as much as using combos in the right order is required. Anyone standing in one spot missing all their positionals will be seen, quite rightly, as a terrible player. Just like someone spamming unprocced rage of halone or standing behind the boss mashing bootshine or heavy thrust all day. Just like a ninja who currently uses Trick Attack from flank.

If you want intelligent arguments, try making them.

[Nalien]

Honestly, I expect the developers to be thinking that competitive DPS should all have to dance the same dance for their GCD damage, as it were.

Mudra lag is the only issue with that, but that is something that can, and very much should, be fixed. Then what? Ninja is in the same league as Monk and Dragoon while having no real complexity to it at all. Ninja honestly feels more like Bard on a good day, and Bard doesn't really come close to Monk or Dragoon. They can either add positional requirements to justify Ninjas damage output, or they can nerf its damage output to be more inline with Bard.

They could do something different to "earn" Ninja its GCD damage, but I'm struggling to think what. If you remove the lag issue (which doesn't even seem to affect everyone) Mudra are a joke to execute, the added steps in their use is paid off by their frequency and potency compared to Dragoons Jumps, while Monks surplus of positionals is the cost for them not really having any abilities of note. If anything that Huton extending combo isn't a band aid to fix Mudra lag, it is in recognition of the ability output between Ninja and Dragoon compared to what goes into executing them; For Dragoon not really anything, for Ninja quite a bit more. Been a while since I compared Jumps to Ninjutsus but I remember it being surprisingly close.

It perhaps should be the cast that Monk and Ninja sit on different ends of the spectrum; Monk with most of its damage coming from GCD rotations with lots of positional requirements. Ninja with most of its damage coming from ability rotation with that holding the "complexity" (Mudra) with few positional requirements on a relatively weak GCD rotation. With Dragoon sitting in the middle. Instead Ninja and Dragoon seem to occupy the same spot, likely due to Mudra lag (which lets remember, has basically been an issue with the game since launch, Mudra just made it more noticeable again). They don't want to shift the focus to Mudra because then the issue is even worse. So now Ninja gets a higher ability output without having to refresh Huton to compensate for the "complexity" of their execution, but since Ninjas GCD rotation is still providing a solid chunk of its overall DPS, and now it isn't really relying on Mudra to enhance that DPS, it should be earned in the same way as Dragoon. That's what I assume the developers are thinking, anyway. Not really sure I agree with it though.

I wonder if it would have been a better idea to change Raiton to be more like Huton/Kiss of the whatever (it would certainly provide a nice visual effect). You keep Raiton up because it enhances your GCD damage, rather than positionals earning that damage bonus, Mudra is through Raiton. The added benefit would be that Fuma Shuriken would then be the main source of ability damage for Ninja. Slightly less damage overall, but then it isn't exactly complex to do. GCD damage would increase to compensate, but it would still be dependent on Mudra.

[silentwindfr]

i think you don't realize what you are saying....

we can't compare monk or dragoon with ninja about positional. monk was made around positional, all it gameplay is fluid because it was made with this in mind. dragoon had the positional added and they did needed to change itafter a long time for make it less punishing. and they only have 2 positional skill now... (did check for be sure) heavy thrust and chaos thrust. and them main focus is to exectue one of the longuest cycle around.

but i digress, on the other hand ninja had one out global cooldown positional. and had to focus to execute a cycle and execute mudra in order and in short time for add them ninjutsu to them cycle... now they want us in plus to pay attention to our positional about the boss.... without even talk to the community playing this jobs, they did decide a soo important change about the jobs. (that was selled as a jobs with little to no positional) and for which reason? because tank are the one attack head-on?

ok, add position to the ninja, but at the time add a system as the mudra systeme to the dragoon and monk, a system where the skill can fail because you did mess up or because of the lag. please add them this, no trouble! give us the positional they use, but give them a same system as us!

ps: ok i want we stop something, monk recquire positional, but it don't recquire to change of position every 2 second, but mostly every 6-8 second... isn't that hard... since you will normally stay at the edge of the flank position and have a small step to do on the side for be in rear position.

don't get me wrong it don't means that the jobs is easy, but it's only a different gameplay based on a movement between flank and rear every 6-8 second, actually the hardest part is to make sure to not loose GL on some fight.

[Kaze3434]

Just like a ninja who currently uses Trick Attack from flank.

If you want intelligent arguments, try making them.

not going to lie, i laughed at this. so many times have trick attack hit the flank because i moved early in t13. back on point tho, i agree that to play to the best of a jobs potential, hitting where you will do more damage is better, and should be aimed for. if something prevents you from doing that reliably(a bosses move or being rooted) then there isnt much that can be done.

[SDaemon]

ok, add position to the ninja, but at the time add a system as the mudra systeme to the dragoon and monk, a system where the skill can fail because you did mess up or because of the lag. please add them this, no trouble! give us the positional they use, but give them a same system as us!

I might be inclined to agree, if the mudra system had a profound impact on being able to move into position for a weaponskill, but that isn't the case.

[Kaze3434]

I might be inclined to agree, if the mudra system had a profound impact on being able to move into position for a weaponskill, but that isn't the case.

thats one reason why i dont really see adding positionals as a big problem. at most, its a slight annoyance, but something one can easily get used to.

[Viridiana]

thats one reason why i dont really see adding positionals as a big problem. at most, its a slight annoyance, but something one can easily get used to.

Yeah, I'm reserving judgement until we have more info. Until then I'm just wary, because I don't much care for positionals as a whole.