DEV REQUEST:DUEL/SPAR system

[kyuven]

Frontlines isn't the only PvP in this game, you know... I really do dread to think how the common player is going to react to 3.0 if the handful of PvP skills confuse them, none of the PvP ones are even used in combos and their effects are very clear (this removes debuffs, this heals you, this is defensive) but that is an entirely different debate... Still, if the new PvP skills are like driving a tank to some players... That is a new low for this games playerbase...

The PVP skills are different enough that you need to relearn your class.This takes time and effort that many players don't want to go through because they just spent 50 levels doing that. Moreover they're not given any situation where they can just practice.

Or they could just limit where we can Duel, like has been suggested numerous times, along side just throwing it in the Wolves Den instance; Making a 1v1 mode for that wouldn't be a massive undertaking in the slightest. Can already use the PvP skills at Wolves Den Pier anyway, why not just add a bit more to that map (again, they're making an entire new map for Frontlines so it's not like they couldn't have) and make that the designated Duel area? A Duel area doesn't even need to be significantly complex, it would be a very easy area to design compared to what we've seen of the new Frontlines map (which looks great even if I have my doubts about the mode itself).

Again you're missing the point, for the same point, twice in a row. The OP wants OPEN PVP DUELS
While yes, restricting where on the maps they could take place could be a thing, I get the sense that's not what the OP wants. Moreover, you would need to set up a separate system for assigning the duels, to ensure it's not just an open PVP arena. With that amount of work, yes adding it to the Wolves Den would be the easiest and AGAIN I agree with this, it wouldn't be a terrible idea to add it to the Wolves Den. Aside from the complete lack of balance between the classes.

The issue isn't about popularity. It's about access. Go back a few posts and read my ridiculous rant, the issue with PvP is that people cannot get into it due to the queues, which in turn makes the queues worse, which in turn is not helped by splitting players across multiple different queues (Wolves Den, Secure, Slaughter, etc.). By not addressing this simple issue they are effectively damning every piece of PvP content they release. Wolves Den was popular, then that little negative feedback loop kicked in and it became very time consuming just to get in. The exact same thing happened to Secure, and Slaughter. There are other issues, sure, but this is the main one.

Um, yes, it IS about popularity. People don't queue for PVP because it's unpopular and the queues are long.
If your access to something is based around people wanting to do it, and no one wants to do it, you're not going to be able to access it. And all the pretty little changes in the world aren't going to affect it one way or another.
This isn't a PVP game, therefore PVP queues will always be long. The only possible exception WOULD be duels, but those would be so skewed towards certain classes you'd run into ANOTHER problem.

And to all the people who complain that duels would be "noisy", are you kidding me?

Nope, not at all.

When you duel the two fighters are only able to target each other within the dueling space- in dCUO if player leaves the dueling space ..the duel ends and the other person wins. Players can watch but won't get hit in the cross fire. What they could do is only able duel in open zones where we combat npc not like uldah central- u know the places we can cant use a mount.

would it be cool to even have 2v2 - player+ chocobo battles.

I want final fantasy to be the best b/c i think its the best..the music alone is amazing!

OK, once again. People are annoyed when actions take place near them when they're rather NOT have those actions take place.
Chat spam? You can ignore via blacklist, big deal move one.
BATTLE spam? You have to manually adjust settings, and no one should have to manually adjust settings just because two guys want to pretend to duke it out just to be annoying in a populated area.
This is a legitimate issue, just as legitimate as the lack of "PVP awareness"
Many people, ESPECIALLY in games like this, don't want to be disturbed in certain areas.

One of you cites the music. How can you hear the music when players are spamming attacks right next to you?
Why do they get to be allowed to do this, rather than just getting 1v1 in Wolves' Den?

Does anybody have a real reason to not introduce dueling to the game? A reason that's not as comical as the problem of balancing 1v1 combat, which almost no MMORPG has successfully done, or the fear of confrontation?

No problems with 1v1...just not OPEN 1v1.
1v1 Wolves Den: Good idea
1v1 /duel in the open world: Bad idea

Oh, and as someone pointed out to me: Lag is a thing. Another reason to not allow them in the open world.

[kpxmanifesto]

No problems with 1v1...just not OPEN 1v1.
1v1 Wolves Den: Good idea
1v1 /duel in the open world: Bad idea

That reason is strange to me. Why would dueling that's limited to the zones outside of a major city be a bother to you?

[kyuven]

That reason is strange to me. Why would dueling that's limited to the zones outside of a major city be a bother to you?

In that case it'd be impractical, if you have to go out of your way just for a duel.
In addition, what consitutes "outside a city"? Is it outside a sanctuary? If so, that would make dueling more dangerous than it should be. Would it be like triple triad?
In that case, why not just make it exclusive to the Wolves' Den? That's the PVP area, those are the PVP instances. Use them. Don't clutter up the rest of the world with something that would be better off left there.

[kpxmanifesto]

In that case it'd be impractical, if you have to go out of your way just for a duel.
In addition, what consitutes "outside a city"? Is it outside a sanctuary? If so, that would make dueling more dangerous than it should be. Would it be like triple triad?
In that case, why not just make it exclusive to the Wolves' Den? That's the PVP area, those are the PVP instances. Use them. Don't clutter up the rest of the world with something that would be better off left there.

1. Why is it impractical?
2. Why would dueling outside a city be more dangerous? Dangerous to who?
3. What clutter are you talking about? Character collision in this game doesn't exist.

A lot of these "reasons" sound more like personal preferences rather than real reasons to me.

[kyuven]

1. Why is it impractical?
2. Why would dueling outside a city be more dangerous? Dangerous to who?
3. What clutter are you talking about? Character collision in this game doesn't exist.

A lot of these "reasons" sound more like personal preferences rather than real reasons to me.

1+2: Takes time to get to and you have to go out of your way. There's no one there to watch unless you invite them so why bother? It's more dangerous because outside of cities/sanctuaries tend to be mobs. When a zone/instance for this sort of thing already exists that you can queue/warp to, why bother with anything else?
3. Players generate lag just by existing. Players that perform actions generate more lag. Imagine if 10 people in Mor Dhona decided to duel one another at the same time. Not only are they making NOISE, but they're also lagging other players when they do so. Imagine an S rank hunt in all the popular areas all the time.

The PvP skills do not result in you having to relearn your Job... They all have very clear uses, none of them are remotely complex. Any relearning is due to PvP being drastically different, must more fast paced and not 100% scripted. That is what people find hard to learn, not that the skills are hard to grasp. If anyone is looking at Attunement and going "How do I use this?", quit right now.

They are new skills, not available anywhere else. You will be expected to use them in PVP to succeed. Therefore, you have to relearn how to play your class because your class has new abilities it did not under normal circumstances. They also have to be FIT onto your action bar.
And practicing on a dummy? That tells you nothing about how to actually use a skill. Sure, it can tell you durations and stacking rules, but it teaches you nothing.
Again, once again, and again and again i seem to be reiterating myself: 1v1 Wolves Den would be FINE for this. I have no problem with 1v1 Wolves Den.
OPEN PvP, outside Wolves Den? No.

Seriously, just stop. You don't seem to know what you're talking about. Have you even done any PvP in this game?

Yes, I have. The queues got boring, so I stopped. Even the roulette takes forever, which makes no sense.
Frontlines used to be the "new shiny," so the queues were fast. It stopped being the new shiny, so it stopped being popular. Just like a lot of dungeons have. Just like Wolves Den. Just like pre-50 dungeons. Just like FATE parties in zones other than Coerthas.

1. A good portion of this game is spent running around and you have an issue with walking just outside of town?
2. "There's no one there to watch..." I need to see a source on that please. Dueling doesn't even exist in this game yet and yet you are able to make such a prediction that no one will be outside to watch?
3. Are we talking about the level 1-3 mobs outside of major cities?
4. "Imagine if 10 people in Mor Dhona decided to duel one another at the same time." - I said outside of sanctuaries.
5. Noise is a bother to you in this game? Who's forcing you to stand in a dueling area with your volume turned to the max?

Again DUELING AREA.
One exists. Why not use that instead of having it anywhere else? Why spend time devising a system of such limited use when they can just apply it to something that already exists.
Why bother going through all the testing and trouble of allowing duels in areas players aren't actually hanging out when you could add them to a zone/instance that already exists?

5. No one. But you want open PVP. Something like that can and will be used to harass people. As I'm typing this while waiting on a queue, someone ran by and used Ring of Thorns. It's irritating. Why give them the option when you can just make use of an area that already exists? Why allow duels in the middle of nowhere for no reason when you can make use of an area that already exists?

[kpxmanifesto]

stuff

1. A good portion of this game is spent running around and you have an issue with walking just outside of town?
2. "There's no one there to watch..." I need to see a source on that please. Dueling doesn't even exist in this game yet and yet you are able to make such a prediction that no one will be outside to watch?
3. Are we talking about the level 1-3 mobs outside of major cities?
4. "Imagine if 10 people in Mor Dhona decided to duel one another at the same time." - I said outside of sanctuaries.
5. Noise is a bother to you in this game? Who's forcing you to stand in a dueling area with your volume turned to the max?

[mrmelgibson]

@kyuven

I'm more of a pver then pvper. I agree about no duels in cities/sanctuary. But, the reasons you gave for not allowing duels outside of cities/towns are just ludicrous. It's almost like you were humiliated in a duel in another mmo. Your phobia of it happening again is turning into vitriol. At this point you won't even listen to reason.

[kpxmanifesto]

5. No one. But you want open PVP. Something like that can and will be used to harass people. As I'm typing this while waiting on a queue, someone ran by and used Ring of Thorns. It's irritating. Why give them the option when you can just make use of an area that already exists? Why allow duels in the middle of nowhere for no reason when you can make use of an area that already exists?

You really got irritated by someone using ring of thorns? I really hope you don't participate in any sort of large scale hunt or FATE. What are you gonna do when ring of thorns get used 5 or 6 times? Throw your computer out the window? All your so called "reasons" for not having dueling outside of sanctuaries just boils down to personal preference. I've not seen any other people bringing up any sort of rationale that coincides with yours.

[Nalien]

The PVP skills are different enough that you need to relearn your class.This takes time and effort that many players don't want to go through because they just spent 50 levels doing that. Moreover they're not given any situation where they can just practice.

The PvP skills do not result in you having to relearn your Job... They all have very clear uses, none of them are remotely complex. Any relearning is due to PvP being drastically different, must more fast paced and not 100% scripted. That is what people find hard to learn, not that the skills are hard to grasp. If anyone is looking at Attunement and going "How do I use this?", quit right now.

Also, no where to practice? You can use PvP skills in Wolves Den Pier on the dummies, but ignore that, because testing a rotation in PvP is fairly redundant in the sense people would practice current rotations (can practice a burst but I doubt newer players would know to do that). If only people were asking for some form of sparring system for PvP where they can get real practice at PvP, without the long queue times, something they can do in a couple of minutes...

This isn't a PVP game, therefore PVP queues will always be long.

Odd, I remember a time when I could have back to back Frontlines matches, churning out dozens of i70 desynths from the Wolf Marks a day. It's almost as if queues used to be fine... It's almost as if PvP used to be quite popular...

Seriously, just stop. You don't seem to know what you're talking about. Have you even done any PvP in this game? I know it might be hard for you to believe, but there was a time when some of us could get into matches very frequently. Many of us would like to again, but we don't because waiting for over 30 minutes isn't appealing. The issue, as I have repeatably said, is that PvP queues suffer from a negative feedback loop; People drop out of queues, queues become worse, people can't be asked to wait that long, more people drop out of queues. Rinse and repeat. That is the biggest issue PvP suffers from in this game. New maps and modes become popular at launch, but they still end up suffering from this exact issue. SE can either address this issue, or continue pumping out more modes that will be popular for a while and again need replacing. One of those options is much more resource intensive than the other, guess which. Add to that the fact that more modes dilutes the number of players in the queues, making queues even worse.

PvP is currently unpopular due to the queues. The queues are a result of negative feedback. That is the state of affairs, please stop spouting nonsense like "queues will always be long" when anyone who regularly used to PvP knows for a fact that that is simply not the case. People stopped queuing because they had other things to do. When we feel like coming back the queues are longer due to that drop off. Because the queues are longer people stop queuing, making matters worse. That is a fact. It is not a fact that there is nothing SE can do about that. They can, they're just opting to turn PvP into a themepark instead by adding new modes every other update instead. They actually have some of what I've suggested planned, it's just constantly being pushed back in favour of new Frontlines modes. They keep making the same mistake instead of fixing this issue.