Do you think sell groups are hurting end game community?

[Aerowaffle]

I can just picture some of these people forming an Eorzean Twelve Temperance Union and criminalizing run selling... Then all the run selling will be done in secret by bootleggers..

People should stop wearing FCOB gear, it encourages other players to want it too, which encourages them to buy gil, which encourages RMT sellers.

Are you two done making sarcastic jabs?

Buying runs is probably one of the few ways to advance your battle-class through gil alone. Gil is mostly a commodity in this game, which is rare for an MMO, and just makes the pay-to-win methods that more evident when they're scarce. It generates a demand for gil from people who are already too lazy to clear a run themselves, and those same people are more likely to be too lazy to earn gil on their own (thus resorting to RMT).

Is it something that should be disallowed because it causes the lazy players to want gil? No. But it's silly to pretend that it's not generating a RMT demand when you're selling runs to unmotivated players, at prices that only motivated players could achieve.

I'm against buying runs, not because of the gil demand it generates, but because it allows people to pay-to-win. I believe the end-game content should be earned and only completed by those who actually had the skills and effort required. The more people who achieve a certain benchmark, but don't deserve it, the less it means to achieve it for everyone. People don't need to complete 100% of content if they don't have the required skill and/or effort.

[Eidolon]

Snips~.

I get what you're saying. The issue is, people treat this like its the only thing in the game. The simple fact is, you could just as easily blame crafters.

"Buying levekits makes the game pay2win for crafting!" 500k/levekit
"Crafters charge too much for armor so people feel like they have to buy Gil to afford vanity!" 800k/i110 HQ
"High end materia / spirit bonding makes people buy gil!" 300-500k/materia IV...

Blaming run sellers for providing a service, to me, is silly. And any of those three, you could turn around and say they "ruin the markets" (though Marybeth not the community...)

[GenJoe]

I'm against buying runs, not because of the gil demand it generates, but because it allows people to pay-to-win. I believe the end-game content should be earned and only completed by those who actually had the skills and effort required. The more people who achieve a certain benchmark, but don't deserve it, the less it means to achieve it for everyone. People don't need to complete 100% of content if they don't have the required skill and/or effort.

If you seriously think buying runs is pay to win..
i.e. Completing T13 makes you a winner in this game, please, refocus your goals in this game.. Raid completion is a joke, nobody takes you seriously just because you killed a big bad dragon..

Sell groups shout periodically, several of them

So?
So do FC recruiters..
Same thing with bored people in Coerthas.

When a hunt pops up?

/sh inv
/sh inv
/sh inv
/sh inv
/sh inv tank
/sh inv
/sh inv plz
/sh inv healer
/sh inv
/sh inv

[Elusana_Celah]

Raid completion is a joke, nobody takes you seriously just because you killed a big bad dragon..

[Aerowaffle]

If you seriously think buying runs is pay to win..
i.e. Completing T13 makes you a winner in this game, please, refocus your goals in this game.. Raid completion is a joke, nobody takes you seriously just because you killed a big bad dragon..

I don't really care what you believe my goals in the game should be. An MMO, this one especially, has several avenues of advancement that individuals could consider their goal. And seeing others use gil and/or real money to circumvent any effort or skill normally required lessens the accomplishment for all those that complete it, since onlookers can't correlate the accomplishment with the skill/effort anymore.

[CGMidlander]

I don't really care what you believe my goals in the game should be. An MMO, this one especially, has several avenues of advancement that individuals could consider their goal. And seeing others use gil and/or real money to circumvent any effort or skill normally required lessens the accomplishment for all those that complete it, since onlookers can't correlate the accomplishment with the skill/effort anymore.

Some people work pretty hard to earn their gil. I know a couple people who are solely focused on crafting and playing the market board, and they have more gil than I can even dream of having.

Are they not allowed to buy a service with their gil?

A farmer in real life can grow his or her own crops and have a sense of accomplishment that they grew their own food. But does that make people with different jobs who buy food at a supermarket any lesser?

[Aerowaffle]

Some people work pretty hard to earn their gil. I know a couple people who are solely focused on crafting and playing the market board, and they have more gil than I can even dream of having.

Are they not allowed to buy a service with their gil?

A farmer in real life can grow his or her own crops and have a sense of accomplishment that they grew their own food. But does that make people with different jobs who buy vegetables at a supermarket any lesser?

I guess I should narrow my grievance. I dislike RMT being used to skip content in any way, shape, or form. I dislike people using gil, to bypass what should be an exercise of skill and teamwork.

Crafting is a lump of effort and time. Using gil you made through crafting, to advance crafting, is using previous extra effort to skip some time.

And I don't really have a comment on trying to relate a video game's effort and accomplishments to farming for a living.

[CGMidlander]

I guess I should narrow my grievance. I dislike RMT being used to skip content in any way, shape, or form. I dislike people using gil, to bypass what should be an exercise of skill and teamwork.

Crafting is a lump of effort and time. Using gil you made through crafting, to advance crafting, is using previous extra effort to skip some time.

And I don't really have a comment on trying to relate a video game's effort and accomplishments to farming for a living.

Do you know what a metaphor is?

Anyway, from what I'm seeing, it seems the base of a lot of the anti-sell arguments is that run sells are so expensive that the only way people can afford them is to buy gil through RMT.

That's untrue.

Most runs don't cost double-digit millions. They cost single-digit millions. (And for some really old content, not even a million per run)
These costs are not even remotely out of reach for many dedicated crafters.

Do you really think these kind of people is the majority of kill buyers?

Without any concrete statistics, nobody can say for certain in either direction.

[KarstenS]

Here you say:

Anyway, from what I'm seeing, it seems the base of a lot of the anti-sell arguments is that run sells are so expensive that the only way people can afford them is to buy gil through RMT.

That's untrue.

And here you say:

Without any concrete statistics, nobody can say for certain in either direction.

The one or the other?

Btw. I do know many high end crafters and harcore binders. I get big eyes when I see everyones gil numbers have 9 digits.

Do they buy kills?

No.

Why?

They are sucessfully raiding their own.


People that buy kills because they can't shedule for raids also can't shedule for making the needed amount of legit gil. Only a rare minority of the crafers would buy their kills because they do not raid.

There is your opinion and mine.

But when I look at the facts

- Kill selling increasing
- RMT increasing
- only a minority of high end crafters buy kills

my opinion is way more possible than yours.

If you still not believe me, tell me please what the gil buyers do with all that growing amount of RMT gil?

People don't buy gil just to have a nice number. They buy it because they want to to something with it immediately.

If they would buy stuff from marketboard, the prices would increase. But they are not growing. They are falling like hell. Falling prices always are caused by a worse demand.

[KarstenS]

Some people work pretty hard to earn their gil. I know a couple people who are solely focused on crafting and playing the market board, and they have more gil than I can even dream of having.

Are they not allowed to buy a service with their gil?

Do you really think these kind of people is the majority of kill buyers?

I do not sell runs. But I play together with ppl that sell runs. When we don't get our farmgroup full with own ppl, we pf up. Many times ppl joined and I've heared in ts "Look this guy. We've sold him that kill yesterday" or similar stuff. Than I take a closer look at this guy and in most cases I really can't believe that this guy paid with legit obtained gil.

A not small amount of ppl seem to buy their kills to bypass the 100 sol message, so that they can join farm parties. The issue is: they make the "farm runs" look like practise runs.