Give PLD In-Combat Raise? (3.0?)

[SpookyGhost]

Not to mention, Paladin is already the 'safety net' of the two tanking classes, and will likely continue to be that safety net throughout Heavensward simply due to their mitigation and how Paladin main tanking trumps War main tanking throughout progression, easily. (Incoming buttflustered pride Warriors who are too much of a brute to understand the reality of things, and funny enough are off tanks in their static).

While true now (well, when progression was relevant), give WAR an immunity in 3.0 and things instantly change. We also don't know how raid bosses will work mechanically in 3.0, big hits on a short timer favor WAR significantly more than PLD. HG is obviously the safety net to trump all safety nets, but it doesn't necessarily put PLD in the MT position no matter what... just most of the time. :P

[Asierid]

give WAR an immunity in 3.0

We tried that. All we got was a cheap ripoff of HG called Holmgang. I highly doubt anything else similar is coming, PLD already cry enough that "We're too similar" as it is.

Only thing WAR has going for it is the on demand, low CD, damage reduction in the form of IB; and better AoE damage. That aside, PLD is already better on many fronts (Even better OT damage in longer fights. IE, Bosses, where it matters). Giving them a raise just raises the bar higher than it needs to be.

[stoxastic]

Only thing WAR has going for it is the on demand, low CD, damage reduction in the form of IB; and better AoE damage. That aside, PLD is already better on many fronts (Even better OT damage in longer fights. IE, Bosses, where it matters). Giving them a raise just raises the bar higher than it needs to be.

WAR actually has a lot going for it. More damage while MTing, more utility while OTing (Eye + Path full time if necessary), more frequent mitigation from IB. PLD OT damage is a little higher than WAR OT but it's not a big difference. Halone debuff is ok but not as good as Path. Only other thing that PLD has going for it is Hallowed Ground.

If DRK brings a lot to raids and hallowed ground is not needed to cheese mechanics in Alexander, PLD will be the first to go (unless they get some really good stuff in the expansion).

[Asierid]

PLD OT damage blows WAR out of the water and is hardly "little". Try 30-40 or so DPS over the course of a boss fight. Sword Oath does way more than people give it credit for, not to mention WAR gets TP starved pretty early if you're Fracturing (Which you should if you're DPSing). On the other hand, the MT damage is what is slight. WAR beats them by single digit percentages (And only because wrath abilities do not take reductions from the tank stance). We have better snap threat due to Zerk/Infuriate, and IB. That's it.

Ninja brings slashing now, and Path's 10%, while nice, isn't anything great when you're getting chunked for thousands of damage and shouldn't be that low to begin with.

I'll gladly give PLD SP for a HG lookalike to Holmgang. Least it gives them another rotation instead of 123.

So yes, give them a raise. Now they do more damage than WAR, AND have the utility of covering/rezzing people. Meanwhile, I make the boss not hit for 400-500 while a ninja replaces my slashing buff because they can't pay attention. Yes WAR has IB. That's the biggest selling point of the class along with Steel Cyclone, damage reduction on demand and a whirlwind. That's it.

As Ditto said:

(Incoming buttflustered pride Warriors who are too much of a brute to understand the reality of things, and funny enough are off tanks in their static)

[stoxastic]

PLD OT damage blows WAR out of the water and is hardly "little". Try 30-40 or so DPS over the course of a boss fight.

Proof? I've parsed a dummy many times with PLD vs WAR and I've never seen a discrepancy that big. It's always been close, even if you give PLD the slashing bonus. I'd like to be proven wrong, but I've never seen it.

not to mention WAR gets TP starved pretty early if you're Fracturing (Which you should if you're DPSing)

It's actually about pretty close even with fracturing because you regen some TP during berserk's pacification. Fracturing 3 times per berserk is about 20*3=60 more TP than not fracturing, and you regen about that much while waiting for pacification to drop. WAR can also use infuriate -> unchained which will allow them to build 5 stacks for an extra free TP move every 2 minutes. PLD doesn't get shield swipe so their TP drain is pretty high when OT.

On the other hand, the MT damage is what is slight. WAR beats them by single digit percentages (And only because wrath abilities do not take reductions from the tank stance).

Having unchained completely nullify the penalty for 20s every 2 mins is a rather substantial gain. Also 300 unpenalized potency on IB is nothing to sneeze at.

Ninja brings slashing now, and Path's 10%, while nice, isn't anything great when you're getting chunked for thousands of damage and shouldn't be that low to begin with.

NIN can use a higher dps rotation if they don't need to keep up the slashing debuff, so it's still a large benefit to have the WAR in the party to keep it up.
Path is useful for mitigating all the magic raid damage that goes out in end game encounters. It actually is pretty great.

[myahele]

Having an OT PLD helping to raise a dead party member will always be useful IMO. Mana isn't needed and can quickly be replenished via riot blade before add phase.

With combat raise PLD will probably be the preferred tank to have in progression. Heck, many people still prefer having PLDs than WARs

[Asierid]

Stuff

Math was already done quite some time ago. Tl;dr: Give PLD slashing debuff, they run off with the OT DPS in a longer fight. In terms of MT, the difference is small, but still there. Zerk sucks, FoF does not. That's the end of it.

Yes Ninja can do higher DPS without having to do slashing, that's not the point. Point was that the slashing utility is not for WAR alone anymore.

And I really don't want to know why you are Fracturing 3 times during a Zerk.

To the topic at hand since this thread became derailed. No. They don't need a raise, for these reasons.

[Ditto]

I highly doubt anything else similar is coming, PLD already cry enough that "We're too similar" as it is.

It's funny how they do, yet at the same time they also cry about the damage difference while MT, and want more Shield Oath damage. May as well give them the damage of a DPS, the tanking utility of a.. Paladin (Oh wait), the OT utility of a War (Which only exists for bad War's), and all the everything of just.. anything. Give them it all.

WAR actually has a lot going for it. More damage while MTing, more utility while OTing (Eye + Path full time if necessary), more frequent mitigation from IB.

There are several things I disagree with here.

1. Yes, they have more damage while MT, there is no doubting that really, but YOUR damage is far from all that matters, and trying to prioritize more damage as a Warrior can easily be at the cost of overall group DPS, because if both of your healers need to be glued to you in order to keep you alive, you're missing out on the DPS one of those healers, likely the scholar would be doing in cleric stance instead, which overall is probably going to be more than what you're gaining over a Pld as the War MT. (Using Turn 13 as an example, it's been solo tanked with a Paladin, but not yet a Warrior)

2. That more utility while off-tanking is a really trivial thing. Personally, I have no problem managing both eye and path while the MT, They certainly wont be going up first thing unless I have my buffs and such ready, but once they are up I can manage them fairly fine with only a small amount of drop off time depending on which one I'm prioritizing more (Which is more often Path if I have Nin's in my group). Eye alone is a very trivial thing as well, because as useful as it is, it's not something that overall speeds a fight up like Path does. If your healers are unable to manage the damage that is going out, sure, it's insanely helpful, but if they can do fine without it, it never needs to be touched, ever. Touching it in that case would be like applying 2 band-aids over a cut that the first one fits perfectly fine. It just isn't needed.

3. Sure, frequent mitigation with IB is nice, it's really nice, but it's not the godsend to Warriors people act as if it is. Hell, I go into The Naval (Hard) to help some people get through it while at the same time getting what little bit of poetics I need left to buy something, mountain buster still easily hits me for 3k - 5k, at ilvl 123, with inner beast up. It is REALLY not the amazing mitigation people put it out to be.

And on the topic of useful mitigation for each tank, people seem to forget that Paladins carry shields, and are capable of blocking up to 40% of an incoming attacks damage easily, at as high as a 35% - 50% block rate according to the math someone else here in these tank forums did for different types of shields. I know it's up to RNG whether you block or not, and IB is on demand within GCD's and wrath management, but simply blocking a single attack can often mitigate DOUBLE what a single inner beast would have mitigated. And c'mon, blocking is NOT rare unless you're using a tower shield. I find myself blocking crazy amounts using a High Allagan Kite Shield, without bulwark. But god forbid I use bulwark, it's essentially sentinel 2 with a longer duration.

But in the end, all I'm really saying is, War's don't have that much going for them. This is coming from someone who mains War too, so as much as I'd love to be all prideful like many of the Wars are on these forums, acting as if Warriors are the heavensent tank that Yoshi.P blessed us with, I cant, because they're really not.

Yes they are capable of many things, you can do a lot of things as a War as you could a Pally, and although it feels a lot better in my opinion swinging around a giant axe, there is many things a Pally can do that a War can NOT until the War is geared to the teeth and in a position with their group overall, to be able to do it.

P.S Better AOE damage, sure, at the cost of just about all of your TP. And then you're not doing any damage.

[SpookyGhost]

Eye alone is a very trivial thing as well, because as useful as it is, it's not something that overall speeds a fight up like Path does. If your healers are unable to manage the damage that is going out, sure, it's insanely helpful, but if they can do fine without it, it never needs to be touched, ever. Touching it in that case would be like applying 2 band-aids over a cut that the first one fits perfectly fine. It just isn't needed.

Are you mixing up Eye and Path here? O_o

Also, I've yet to see a PLD OT parse out-do a WAR, despite all the apparent math that shows it should. I'd like to see one, though, I'm interested in the numbers PLD can push. That is, in a fight, not on a dummy.

1. Yes, they have more damage while MT, there is no doubting that really, but YOUR damage is far from all that matters, and trying to prioritize more damage as a Warrior can easily be at the cost of overall group DPS, because if both of your healers need to be glued to you in order to keep you alive, you're missing out on the DPS one of those healers, likely the scholar would be doing in cleric stance instead, which overall is probably going to be more than what you're gaining over a Pld as the War MT. (Using Turn 13 as an example, it's been solo tanked with a Paladin, but not yet a Warrior)

If you're sacrificing healer DPS for your own, you're a bad WAR. You don't even need to really prioritize DPS to out-do a PLD in tank stance, just have Path up for big attacks, Eye -> BB otherwise, IB on CD unless you need it soon, etc. etc. Not hard, doesn't cost your healers DPS unless they're super bad. SCH should be in Cleric, PLD MT or WAR MT... so I'm not sure why both healers would need to be out of Cleric unless you're running in with like 7k HP in Defiance.

Also, PLD solo tank method is essentially the same as WAR, nothing that the PLD did in that video can't be done with a WAR as well. Vengeance + Thrill + Conv + SS/Adlo/etc. easily works for the Akhs, Shadows burn too quickly for it to matter (but, y'know, CDs still available for that), adds hit like feathers except DS which you have IB and whatever for, Holmgang in place of Hallowed, etc. etc. You can also solo tank T12 the same way as PLD. There really isn't some huge discrepancy between PLD and WAR; PLD has a shield and HG. Shield is kinda mitigated by IB existing, and IB is on demand. HG is good, of course, but it's not always necessary. WAR, meanwhile, has mitigation ready at a max of 20s, which is fantastic for fights with rapid burst damage as opposed to the current ones which line up well enough with PLD CDs. Also more damage while tanking but apparently that's not good enough when a PLD can go SO on progression content oh wait they can't oh jeez.

PLD is also a god awful job and most people that main it cling to the idea that they're just barely a better tank than WAR because that's pretty much all they have going for them. Which is cool, and fine, but WAR can literally tank anything outside of min/max bleeding edge progression... which I'm okay with, personally. Expansion is also coming up where everyone will get new abilities, and since PLD is literally getting another combo ability (wow! that'll make the job more fun! one more button to press!) I can't say I have high hopes for PLD. An in combat raise would be overpowered in many ways but it's also never happening so forum theory crafting is like w/e zzzzzzzzz.

[VargasVermillion]

Are you mixing up Eye and Path here? O_o

Also, I've yet to see a PLD OT parse out-do a WAR, despite all the apparent math that shows it should. I'd like to see one, though, I'm interested in the numbers PLD can push. That is, in a fight, not on a dummy.

Curious as well, most PLDs don't spec strength from what I've seen, I assume WAR gets away with it easier because it's easier to meet hp requirements with defiance.