Give PLD In-Combat Raise? (3.0?)

[Launched]

No, it would be incredibly broken because PLD has infinite MP and can just tankswap for the cast. Raise has a large MP cost because the group is meant to be punished when someone messes up. SMN, SCH and WHM all lose a huge chunk of MP, and so should any class that needs to raise.

[Alphras]

Curious as well, most PLDs don't spec strength from what I've seen, I assume WAR gets away with it easier because it's easier to meet hp requirements with defiance.

The HP requirements of WAR and PLD have nothing to do with Defiance or Shield Oath. Both skills scale exactly the same in terms of eHP.

[stoxastic]

There's a lot of armchair theorycrafting in this thread from people with limited to no experience in FCoB.

1) Playing WAR *perfectly* they can MT anything almost as well as PLD in many cases. Each jobs has their own advantages depending on the situation. There are some fights where MT WAR is actually better in terms of mitigation. I agree that Hallowed Ground is OP as hell though. The fact that very few players can play WAR perfectly contributes to the false belief that it's an inferior main tank to PLD. If I MT'ed T13, I'd have to spend more though planning my IB and Infuriate usage along with the cooldown rotation. I can tank T13 on PLD while watching netflix.

2) More OT utility is NOT trivial. If you keep full uptime on both Eye and Path and have a OT PLD in full dps gear, you will lose hate. MT WARs need to manage their enmity better because Halone combo in Sword Oath is still a lot of enmity. It's not EZ as 123 for WAR.

3) If you are a WAR and don't think IB is an amazing skill you should probably go play PLD. On demand mitigation is amazing when you use it properly. Every ~20s you can get an 300 potency attack with an 800-1200 heal + 20% mitigation for 6 seconds. In the last phase of T13 a MT WAR can IB right after Earthshakers, giving them 20% mitigation for the tempest wing damage as well as the ensuing flare breath right after. PLD cannot afford to use CDs for that. A MT WAR in T8 Savage is also very good because they can pick up all the homing missiles and IB all of them since they come out pretty regularly.

Vargas also makes a good point because the meta favors WARs sacrificing a lot of HP for more strength because they simple do not need that much as OT. A lot of times you see WARs with 10k HP in defiance for FCoB pre-echo, which is obviously much harder to heal than a 9k HP PLD in Shield Oath. If you gear a WAR to properly be a MT, they'll have substantially more.

[Ditto]

quote

Yes sorry I was mixing up Eye and Path lol. The one that never needs to be touched, if it isn't needed would be Path.

Also, solo tanking T13 as War has been attempted by I believe it was Xenosys, and as far as I'm aware, even he couldn't do it. Perhaps it'll be easier now with the Echo, but pre-echo, it just hasn't been done, and there IS a reason for that.

And stoxastic, no, I wont be going and playing a Pld, but I'm also not going to praise Inner Beast like it's the king of all mitigation just because it can be used 'frequently'. It's a great skill for what it is, and it's big for Warriors sure, but too many people give it too much credit as if it's all a Warrior ever needs, and that just because they have it, they don't need to be looked at, at all anymore. Getting really tired of seeing the "But you have Inner Beast!" argument coming up anywhere War tweak stuff is mentioned.

[Launched]

Yes sorry I was mixing up Eye and Path lol. The one that never needs to be touched, if it isn't needed would be Path.

Also, solo tanking T13 as War has been attempted by I believe it was Xenosys, and as far as I'm aware, even he couldn't do it. Perhaps it'll be easier now with the Echo, but pre-echo, it just hasn't been done, and there IS a reason for that.

And stoxastic, no, I wont be going and playing a Pld, but I'm also not going to praise Inner Beast like it's the king of all mitigation just because it can be used 'frequently'. It's a great skill for what it is, and it's big for Warriors sure, but too many people give it too much credit as if it's all a Warrior ever needs, and that just because they have it, they don't need to be looked at, at all anymore. Getting really tired of seeing the "But you have Inner Beast!" argument coming up anywhere War tweak stuff is mentioned.

Except solo tank T13 as WAR has been done pre-echo, and it doesn't look any more difficult than on PLD. They even had a faster clear time: http://www.twitch.tv/sartii/v/4082936

Inner Beast is amazing because it's the same mitigation as Rampart, but you have it for every big hit along with one of Vengeance/Thrill of Battle/Foresight/Convalescence. You have at least an equal (sometimes stronger, but also shorter duration) equivalent of every PLD cooldown except Hallowed. IB = Rampart. IB+Vengeance = Sentinel. IB+Thrill isn't directly equivalent to Bulwark, but will mitigate around the same amount on one hit. The one advantage PLD has over WAR is Hallowed, but that only gets used twice and it's definitely not required, especially since WAR's cooldowns are much shorter so you'll have them all for the first, third and fifth Akh Morns, unlike Sentinel's 180s and Bulwark being useless.

[VargasVermillion]

The HP requirements of WAR and PLD have nothing to do with Defiance or Shield Oath. Both skills scale exactly the same in terms of eHP.

Well I heard the minimum hp for PLDs was 9000, WARs 10500 for FCoB, If I'm to spec 30 strength on PLD and use 2 strength accessories I ended up with less on the PLD but with WAR on the same set up I could reach the 10500.
I'm sure i meet both of them now but this was back when I was using 1 soldiery piece and had a few unupgraded poetics pieces.
Still I hear most PLDs don't spec strength, is there a reason why?

[Alphras]

You are comparing the supposedly required HP of MT and OT (that is what these numbers are). This has nothing to do with Defiance.

10500 would be really low for a WAR MT in T13.

Edit:

Except solo tank T13 as WAR has been done pre-echo, and it doesn't look any more difficult than on PLD. They even had a faster clear time: http://www.twitch.tv/sartii/v/4082936

Does the WAR in the VID really have 9688 hp in Defiance? That is ballsy xD. So much for "HP requirements".

[SpookyGhost]

Except solo tank T13 as WAR has been done pre-echo, and it doesn't look any more difficult than on PLD. They even had a faster clear time: http://www.twitch.tv/sartii/v/4082936

Figured it'd be Layla Bell, he's a really great WAR. Good stuff.

[Gildarts]

Figured it'd be Layla Bell, he's a really great WAR. Good stuff.

^ yup, Layla is really beast, amazing player~

Also, I've yet to see a PLD OT parse out-do a WAR, despite all the apparent math that shows it should. I'd like to see one, though, I'm interested in the numbers PLD can push. That is, in a fight, not on a dummy.

also dis so true

[Valkyrie-Amber]

So when would a tank be able to raise people uninterrupted while doing its job?

A tanks role is to prevent your party dyeing and control the mobs it should not have raise
Because people should not be dyeing if tank is doing its job.

What pld do need however is a emergency cover all skill to be linked with hallowed ground
making party immune to most things for 10 secs.