summoner dps how to do it

[Evtrai]

So I have a question, I have been slowly lurking this thread, as I leveled and geared up SMN, but, are these last estimations on the openings include food buffs and pots?

I gotta admit, after playing MNK as a main since release, for raiding and what not, and decided I might want a change of play for Heavensward and wanted to opt for SMN in the hopes it might get improved in their downsides, but SMN's rotations are more... complicated, and more atention required than MNK, or DRG (lol), NIN, can't really comment on BLM because I haven't played it, but yeah, I find SMN a bit overwhelming rotation wise, easy to get a huge drop on DPS on a few mistakes.

[Crescent_Dusk]

So I have a question, I have been slowly lurking this thread, as I leveled and geared up SMN, but, are these last estimations on the openings include food buffs and pots?
I gotta admit, after playing MNK as a main since release, for raiding and what not, and decided I might want a change of play for Heavensward and wanted to opt for SMN in the hopes it might get improved in their downsides, but SMN's rotations are more... complicated, and more atention required than MNK, or DRG (lol), NIN, can't really comment on BLM because I haven't played it, but yeah, I find SMN a bit overwhelming rotation wise, easy to get a huge drop on DPS on a few mistakes.

What? You virtually just keep all your dots on a target alongside shadowflare and fester with every dot reapplication cycle. Use Spur and Rouse on cd unless you know you're gonna need tthem coupled with an enkindle to burst something down. Bane to AoE.

How is that any more difficult than cycling 2 skillsets on a monk (dragon kick, fangs, demolish>bootshine>true strike>sucker punch plus managing touch of death, several of those combos have discordant positions so you continually have to change degrees around the mob and hope the tank doesn't jerk them around to your detriment), and an aoe rotation that's gated by stances unless you blow perfect balance? Maybe I don't play monk as much, but BLM and SMN seem far easier rotation wise than a class where you need to time your stances properly because unlike a summoner where you can apply your dots at will, if you erroneously use sucker punch instead of demolish and demolish falls off, you have to wait 2 globals to even apply demolish.

The only real challenge I ever saw with summoner as a class is babysitting the Ifrit egi. Summoner is basically a simpler WoW affliction warlock for the most part. It seems like there's far less room to butcher your dps with a mistake akin to botching up the mudra or using the wrong skill of a stance or using a skill without the proper positional requirement.

[Fireselecta]

How is that any more difficult than cycling 2 skillsets on a monk

Well, honestly, i've tried all DPS classes, and i can easily say that personnally, Monk AND Summoner are the two hardest class to play. Cause in one hand, for those classes, you can easily have a correct DPS (even if you are doing shit like using one wrong skill of a stance or using Ruin1 instead of Ruin2, you DPS will not drop that much). In the other hand, if you aim to maximise your DPS with those two classes, things are way much harder.

Loosing too many ticks of your DoTs during the fight (or re-applying your DoTs too early) and yes your DPS will drop, struggling too much to use your pet and its DPS will drop, don't use an optimal rotation while you're moving and it will drops even harder....

I don't diss any classes, but it's a fact that being a really good SMN or MNK is harder that being a really good DRG, NIN, BRD, BLM. It's only my opinion though

[Sanguisio]

snip

It is easy to do meh dps on SMN, but to really push your DPS on a SMN you need to plan ahead so much more than any other class imo, our dmg is tied to DOTs and AFs. whereas the dps from other classes are dealt in the moment.

[Havenchild]

What? You virtually just keep all your dots on a target alongside shadowflare and fester with every dot reapplication cycle. Use Spur and Rouse on cd unless you know you're gonna need tthem coupled with an enkindle to burst something down. Bane to AoE.

How is that any more difficult than cycling 2 skillsets on a monk (dragon kick, fangs, demolish>bootshine>true strike>sucker punch plus managing touch of death, several of those combos have discordant positions so you continually have to change degrees around the mob and hope the tank doesn't jerk them around to your detriment), and an aoe rotation that's gated by stances unless you blow perfect balance? Maybe I don't play monk as much, but BLM and SMN seem far easier rotation wise than a class where you need to time your stances properly because unlike a summoner where you can apply your dots at will, if you erroneously use sucker punch instead of demolish and demolish falls off, you have to wait 2 globals to even apply demolish.

The only real challenge I ever saw with summoner as a class is babysitting the Ifrit egi. Summoner is basically a simpler WoW affliction warlock for the most part. It seems like there's far less room to butcher your dps with a mistake akin to botching up the mudra or using the wrong skill of a stance or using a skill without the proper positional requirement.

I am sorry but you either have no idea what you're talking about or you are pushing very very average DPS. SMN is by far the most complicated class to maximize on at current. Anyone who says just keep DoTs up, is definitely from the outside looking in and is not a SMN main, much less a sub. You need to know a fight as much as a healer would imo to maximize.

So I have a question, I have been slowly lurking this thread, as I leveled and geared up SMN, but, are these last estimations on the openings include food buffs and pots?

I gotta admit, after playing MNK as a main since release, for raiding and what not, and decided I might want a change of play for Heavensward and wanted to opt for SMN in the hopes it might get improved in their downsides, but SMN's rotations are more... complicated, and more atention required than MNK, or DRG (lol), NIN, can't really comment on BLM because I haven't played it, but yeah, I find SMN a bit overwhelming rotation wise, easy to get a huge drop on DPS on a few mistakes.

They were attempts without Food, Party or Potions. Things like Raging Strikes used of course. As a SMN, throughout the entire fight you are in a decline after your opener, with the only way to move back up are when more mobs are added into the mix. Because of this every decision is pivotal to staying high, from managing your Aetherflow stacks (usage between Fester, Mana Drain and Bane), to clipping your DoTs at the appropriate times, managing your pet skills and positioning either yourself or the pet and getting in auto attacks as many times as possible. Any of these things will impact your DPS by noticeable amounts if preformed inefficiently. Every little thing counts so much more on this SMN class then any other. Think of holding up a ceiling that's slowly closing in on you.

[Evtrai]

Whoever says that any of the melee classes is harder to play than SMN is terribly wrong, the only with some kind of crippling dificulty being MNK that can get severely punished by mechanics until you find the right timings of the fight to manage your grease lightning.

snip

Thanks for the reply, if you don't mind me asking further questions, any information regarding SMN is pretty scarce or outdated since they revolve around the time where SMN still had thunder. What would be SMN's stat prioritization or balances? Here's what I achieved so far over the last week:

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...racter/161493/

What's missing on that planned gear is ironwork hands and ironwork body, but to be honest I'm not sure if that's BiS, ignoring the existence of relic.

[Havenchild]

Thanks for the reply, if you don't mind me asking further questions, any information regarding SMN is pretty scarce or outdated since they revolve around the time where SMN still had thunder. What would be SMN's stat prioritization or balances? Here's what I achieved so far over the last week:

http://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodest...racter/161493/

What's missing on that planned gear is ironwork hands and ironwork body, but to be honest I'm not sure if that's BiS, ignoring the existence of relic.

Well, I prefer over 530 crit, 370-385ish Spell speed and stacking INT and DET as high as possible. Some people consider the Ironworks Body to be BiS because playing with the current stat weights it adds up to more. I however feel that trading 5 Int and putting on the Demon Robe of Casting to give you 31 more DET is superior.

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/Q103

This would probably be the best setup for you using the Dreadwyrm book.

The Crafted shoes penta-melded are also very strongly considered BiS.

[OneWingedSora]

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/Q103

What about this set ?

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/QH69

[Judge_Xero]

What about this set ?

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/QH69

That is IMO the best set you can get without the Zodiac (Full DET/CRIT)

How many INT do we need to compensate 1 Matk from a weapon ?
How many DET do we need to compensate 1 INT ?
What is the value of CRIT and is ACC more important than other stats ?

Here I see that Demon's Robe seems better than Augmented Ironworks Robe.
Are we sure that +31 DET is better than +5 INT ? We also lose some 16 CRIT.
Also, acc cap would be hard to get without the deadwyrm robe

What is the truth behind this ? Is a 120 item a better BiS than a 130 ?

This is an area where SMN is a bit too overcomplicated due to having a Pet.

The reason is because each of those stats effects the SMN and Pet at a different rate, as well as a different rate between even pet to pet. (i.e. Garuda benefits from Spell Speed but Ifrit gets 0 benefit)

A lot of what you will see is people like HavenChild pushing the limits of SMN and finding a noteable difference between gear sets. There is still a lot of work to really sort out the SMN stat weights, but considering the updates we may see in 3.0 there's no point now.

Here is a rough guide to follow, and is in no way 100% tested. (Ifrit only)

MAtk 4.1
INT 1
DET 0.24
Crit 0.14
SPD 0.0032

So that is equalized to 1 INT

[Havenchild]

What about this set ?

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/QH69

This I would say is pretty decent but the Crit is too low.
Through my playing of SMN, I noticed there are what I would describe as noticeable thresholds of Crit. They occur at 520+, 530+ then 545+. The lowest amount I would personally ever recommend is 520 crit.

http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/QH6R - This build would be a nice balance between my recommendation and your build.
http://ffxiv.ariyala.com/QH6T - Switching the bracelet for the poetics here gives you a bigger Crit ceiling. Would be good to test out either of these.
For any build however, if you find yourself over ACC by a decent amount, it's time to evaluate a crafted item and how much Crit / Det you can gain when you sub out INT if ACC isn't an issue.

This answers this:

The Demon shoes are probably BiS if you consider the stat weight... Sad thing is our Flank acc cap... which means the crafted shoes penta-melded are more usefull than the Demon's ones.

The reason I don't consider the Demon shoes to be BiS despite the very nice stats, is because you will have ACC problems or your Spell speed is too low in any build you can make that pushes the your stats to the limit.

How many INT do we need to compensate 1 Matk from a weapon ?
How many DET do we need to compensate 1 INT ?
What is the value of CRIT and is ACC more important than other stats ?

Here I see that Demon's Robe seems better than Augmented Ironworks Robe.
Are we sure that +31 DET is better than +5 INT ? We also lose some 16 CRIT.
Also, acc cap would be hard to get without the deadwyrm robe

What is the truth behind this ? Is a 120 item a better BiS than a 130 ?

Well let's play with the theorectical stat weights at the moment. 1 Int is equal to about 3.5 DET. Which would mean 5 Int is equal to 17.5 DET. From in-game testing however I feel its slightly lower then that. I think 5 INT is closer to what 15 DET will give you when you consider the pet as well. I think and always consider my builds in a 1 INT = 3 DET roughly.

INT to MD atm is roughly 6.9INT = 1 MD or 20-24 DET

I explained my thresholds of crit and what I felt was valuable numbers as of 2.55. ACC above all else is the first stat you must cap. You CAN survive at 1 below the cap and do very well as I have proven this in SCOB. If you ever felt like 534 ACC (535 needed for T13 for pet) was cutting it too close you can make sure you position your pet on the rear instead of the flank. Pet position also is subject to the ACC required in my testing thus Ifrit / Garuda attacking a target from the rear is always going to be 100% even if it's one below the cap. When T9, was in progression, 491 was considered the 100% pet ACC however, I ran 490 ACC and picked up 30+ DET in the process and Garuda I noticed only missed 1 or 2 times per run during the final phase when the boss actually faced Garuda during the Supernovas. These misses in that small window however were largely outweighed by the damage I gained from that 30+ DET, thus making the 1 below ACC viable.

The problem with Ifrit however is that when a fight begins, you are required to start directly south in line with a target to pre-position Ifrit for this without having to move him. A boss like Imdugud for example that can shift his body in one skill to a point where Ifrit can jump from attacking the rear to now attacking the flank or even the front, is another thing to consider when evaluating this. Bahamut Prime atm, does not make any of these sudden shifts.

Sidenote: Bio 2, Bio and I believe ShadowFlare as well apply regardless of ACC out of the ACN skills, so fights like T11 that require consistent movement and a possibility to wind up in front of the boss to dodge Nerve Gas, these skills can be applied from directly in front even if you don't meet the front cap.

Now when I feel two builds are TOO close to really call from my personal use in-game with parser included, I use PuroStriders SMN calculator to see more in depth and compare the two. Granted it is outdated now with the slight changes that have occurred to SMN since Nov, but it still feels fairly accurate as to when I feel something is too close of a call, the calculator shows me the same.

PS: Again I would not use the calculator as a forefront for making a build. It is imperative you do constant testing in-game with parser above ALL ELSE including the current documented Stat weights each patch. At 2.4, I felt the stat weight shifted to the point where Crit / DET influenced your damage overall much more then before 2.4 for example, while the stat weights on Ariyala and calculator were both still showing data from previous patches.