selling coil runs and primals

[Karen_Cerfrumos]

Agreed.

I made it a guiding principle in my FC to have no shadow of RMT over our FC. As a result we have actually kicked two players for run selling. They were confused by the action, but in our view not only is it exploiting other players (in a directly exploitative manner that goes beyond standard economic activity such as buying/selling items through the MB), but it's also a key driver in giving other players an incentive to buy gil.

So you kicked two actually good players from your FC out of some petty preconceptions.
All I can say, good job, they'll probably be better off without you.

[Kosmos992k]

So you kicked two actually good players from your FC out of some petty preconceptions.
All I can say, good job, they'll probably be better off without you.

I feel like those 2 players are better off for having been kicked. that's just... intolerant and unappealing. Do you guys kick 3 star or higher crafters for the same reasoning?

Since you know jack-shit about the situation, you would be far better off remaining silent instet they know they should not(and ad of proving yourself foolish. As for being better off, yes, my FC has beet better off, since we removed two sources of disruption from within.

Running a Free Company is not all cocktail parties and plaudits, sometimes people, even friends, do things they know they should not. That's when you have to put aside personal feelings and do what is right by everyone else. When people join a FC they accept the rules' and guidelines that FC lives by, if they break those, then there is a price to pay. No one, even long standing FC members who shaped those very rules and guidelines, is above the rules.

[tocsin]

Since you know jack-shit about the situation, you would be far better off remaining silent instead of proving yourself foolish. As for being better off, yes, my FC has beet better off, since we removed two sources of disruption from within.

Honestly, if you don't want people commenting on the situation, you shouldn't have brought it up.

Based on the information YOU gave us, and nothing else, it was a pretty mean-spirited thing to do. if there was more to the story, that would have changed that perception, you should have either brought it to the table, or left the entire situation out of it.

Based only on the information we have, two players were out trying to make an honest gil in the world (nothing illegal about selling runs), and they were kicked, because of witch hunting that they supported RMT by selling them. That's all the information we have. If there is more, we would be glad to hear it.

Running a Free Company is not all cocktail parties and plaudits, sometimes people, even friends, do things they know they should not. That's when you have to put aside personal feelings and do what is right by everyone else. When people join a FC they accept the rules' and guidelines that FC lives by, if they break those, then there is a price to pay. No one, even long standing FC members who shaped those very rules and guidelines, is above the rules.

I'm the leader of an FC myself; I quite understand where you are coming from. Was "Do not sell runs" in any of the fc guidelines? if it was, then I retract my statement.

[Kosmos992k]

Honestly, if you don't want people commenting on the situation, you shouldn't have brought it up.
*snip* That's all the information we have. If there is more, we would be glad to hear it.

I brought it up becuase it is an example that fit the context. Comment away, I'm just as free asyou are to reply. There are many ways to reply without being judgemental about thinks you know very little of. As for more information, you need no more information, and in any case, given what you did with what I already posted, I would be foolish in the extreme to supply you with anything further.

Edit: The individuals concerned were well aware of how the FC views their conduct.

[Karen_Cerfrumos]

I brought it up becuase it is an example that fit the context. Comment away, I'm just as free asyou are to reply. There are many ways to reply without being judgemental about thinks you know very little of. As for more information, you need no more information, and in any case, given what you did with what I already posted, I would be foolish in the extreme to supply you with anything further.

Edit: The individuals concerned were well aware of how the FC views their conduct.

That's very ironic, coming from you. Your position were judged on what you provided. If you refuse to provide more information for your case, then you also should've kept silent in the first place. You said you kicked two people for run selling because you assume it ties with RMT. That is silly and misinformed. If you knew these guys were tied with RMT, that'd be a different situation, but that's not what you've said, and as such, don't try to pin the sin of ignorance on others.

[Kosmos992k]

That's very ironic, coming from you. Your position were judged on what you provided. If you refuse to provide more information for your case, then you also should've kept silent in the first place. You said you kicked two people for run selling because you assume it ties with RMT. That is silly and misinformed. If you knew these guys were tied with RMT, that'd be a different situation, but that's not what you've said, and as such, don't try to pin the sin of ignorance on others.

1) the situation as described is as much information as I will give.
2) anything beyond the bare facts is confidential - as it should be since the detail is a private matter between the individual players and my Free Company
3) I did not say that they had ties to RMT, the situation was to do with run selling, not RMT. read what was written and do not push your own version of facts you do not possess.
4) The sin of ignorance is quite willfully committed when someone decides to pass judgement and comment on a situation without the full facts at their disposal.

I have a few people in my FC who engage in ERP. They know that a good portion of the FC frowns upon it, but they also know its not explicitly against our FC rules. if it were, they wouldn't. There is a big difference between "knowing how the fc feels about their conduct", and "against the fc rules explicitly".

There are 4 things that govern people's behavior in any setting;
1) written rules
2) guiding principles
3) societies tolerance
4) personal conviction (ethics)

In a Free Company or guild, the first two elements are set by the FC/Guild leadership, the third is about how the membership in general reacts to things and the 4th is the player's personal responsibility and feeling.

My Free Company has 3 written rules;
1) respect all players
2) no drama
3) no cheating (including, but not limited to modding, RMT, glitching, etc...)

We also have guiding principles that are core to the FC, such as honesty, loyalty, integrity, and in particular helping others for the sake of helping - not personal gain.

These rules and principles have existed since the guild/FC was founded (before FFXIV). The members I have referenced were not only aware of these things, but they had helped to formulate how those rules were to be interpreted and how the principles extend the rules to cover situations not explicitly written into the rules.

See the trouble with written rules is that if you did not write a rule to cover an exact situation, you cannot apply the rule, and people can always exclaim that the written rule doesn't cover what happened. On the other hand broadly framed rules and principles cover all things, they do lead to situations where the judgement of the leadership is essential.

Since removing a member from a guild/Free Company is the most final of measures that can be used, kicking a member requires care and attention. Like many guilds/FCs we only remove people after multiple situations that break/go against the rules/principles of the FC - with the sole exceptions of anything that breaks the T&C of the game, and any extreme behavior that breaks the rules or principles of the guild.

The decision we made is not up for public review, and no further information about the situation will be provided to protect the privacy of the players involved. I will make it clear though that the players had not, to my knowledge, broken the SE T&C for FFXIV, nor were they summarily dismissed from the FC - so you can be well assured that there was a great deal of discussion and consideration by the FC leadership before the decision to remove a member was made.

Whether the particular kicking was warranted or not, is off topic, however, so we should get back on topic, of discussing the Ethical ramifications of selling runs.

Quite. I will say again, since you have indicated this is a discussion of ethics, the rules and principles that govern players in my FC put run selling in a category of behavior that is unethical for members of the FC. Whether or not others agree with that ethical stance is not my concern, it is simply the way our FC views that particular matter.

Personally, my viewpoint is "if it isn't against the terms of service, or against any Written rules from your server, fc, linkshell, or otherwise, it is ethical to do whatever you enjoy doing." next person?

I think you need to add that if it is not against the laws of the country you are resident in, since many countries now have written laws governing online acts and behavior (such as stalking). Further, unless you're aware of another definition of ethics, ethics are personal. Your ethics are individual to you and may/may not differ from mine. What matters is whether our individual ethics align with the ethics of the organizations/communities/society we are part of. If our ethics are not aligned with one or more of those, we may find ourselves being excluded by whichever organization, community or society our ethics differ from.

If I have to choice between help a random player to win a primal fight/a coil turn or sell it to them, I d prefer sell it to them, because I have NO BENEFIT in help those random player but if I sell it to them, I can make some k to kk.

There is a benefit, it is simple the case that it is something you (and many others like you) do not value. That benefit is the satisfaction of helping someone, and if that player is on your server, the benefit might develop into a friendship. But hey, I guess gil is worth more than personal satisfaction, or potential friendship - to some.

[Shneibel]

There is a benefit, it is simple the case that it is something you (and many others like you) do not value. That benefit is the satisfaction of helping someone, and if that player is on your server, the benefit might develop into a friendship. But hey, I guess gil is worth more than personal satisfaction, or potential friendship - to some.

Base on the quote, I can see you are looking down on ppl who sell the run & think your decision is righteous. It is fine if your opinion and your choice is different but if you can leave that righteous attitude out of this, it will be awesome. Because I sell the run does not mean I am not value friendship or refuse to help someone.The "satisfaction of helping someone", to me it sound more like you help other ppl for your own satisfaction and not help them because you want to help them.

The benefit you mention is a choice. I choice to sell the runs, earn me some gil to be able to archive my goal in game easier and faster, I see nothing wrong with this.

[Darra]

There is a benefit, it is simple the case that it is something you (and many others like you) do not value. That benefit is the satisfaction of helping someone, and if that player is on your server, the benefit might develop into a friendship. But hey, I guess gil is worth more than personal satisfaction, or potential friendship - to some.

I've read a lot of what you've been saying, and concluded that you are in fact, worse than the sellers you find immoral. When people sell a service (which often times uses up their time, like a plumber that's come to fix your heating) for gil, they're participating in a transaction of a physical currency. You on the other hand, are doing it maybe because you believe in karma and want better karma, maybe you're religious and want your deity to see how much of a good boy/girl you are, maybe you do things to feel good about yourself, or as seems to be the case, you do it so you can act morally superior to others. Whatever the reason is, it's still a currency, good karma points, that tingly feeling of doing something good, having your deity tick more boxes in your favor for an after-life, or more examples to try beating people around the head with in a verbal discussion. Why this makes you worse, is that those of us that use a physical currency, we're not hiding what we're doing, you're blinding yourself to the currency you receive because it's not something you can spend in the real world that other people will accept.

[tocsin]

Edit: The individuals concerned were well aware of how the FC views their conduct.

I have a few people in my FC who engage in ERP. They know that a good portion of the FC frowns upon it, but they also know its not explicitly against our FC rules. if it were, they wouldn't. There is a big difference between "knowing how the fc feels about their conduct", and "against the fc rules explicitly".

not wanting to push you further, because we are already slightly off the topic, but if you aren't going to give any further information, we are can only work with what you do give us. Whether the particular kicking was warranted or not, is off topic, however, so we should get back on topic, of discussing the Ethical ramifications of selling runs.

Personally, my viewpoint is "if it isn't against the terms of service, or against any Written rules from your server, fc, linkshell, or otherwise, it is ethical to do whatever you enjoy doing." next person?