3 Star token rotation help

[Gillionaire]

What are you talking about? ToT is a level 15 alchemist ability. Why would you not have this?

Unless you're talking about Comfort Zone (level 50 alc ability)? You *can* do anything without comfort zone, it's just going to be harder to do.

He probably just wants to eliminate RNG in his crafting rotations.. I know a crafter that's like that.. He did his lucis tokens with a static macro that gave 15-20% hq and just kept running it instead of trying to do a manual rotation because he doesn't feel comfortable with all the RNG. I'm not saying I'd agree with that decision, but it's what some people choose to do.

snip

8FC3 lost isn't really such an amazing feat to brag about.. Especially regarding Manual II tokens which is hugely RNG dependent.. I got most of mine without losing a single FC3.. then ran into issues on my WVR book with bad RNG, I think I lost 10 on that one alone.

Anyway, I wouldn't use WN for 40 durability crafts but for 80 durability, WN2 does work wonders.
The basic SH2 -> WN2 -> Hasty x 4 -> SH2 -> Hasty x 5 -> rotation, along with a couple of hasty touches filled in earlier in the beginning with progress rotation can give you more touch actions than a manipulation/master's mend rotation.

Besides, your manual II token recipe only has 11 hasty touches and assumes going for Byregots on IQ 10 or IQ 11.. Of course you can adapt since you can take pretty much all the ToTT that comes your way, but really, looking at your results. It doesn't really seem to be any different than mine and it seems you got some very good RNG during the bait phase, you failed almost no bait attempts except during your CRP tokens.

[Wisdombeer]

Wisdombeer if cp is available waste not and waste not II are viable its alot of cp efficient than MM
[...]
8 steps for 142 cp? (includes SHII) vs 160 master meld 6 steps vs 92 for 3 steps?
[...]
I would rather use my rotations offering 12-14 touches

You are missing something. WNII does only give a 4 step bonus, not 8. If you are 80 durability and you cast WNII then 8 HT's, you are 40 durability. consequently, you could cast 8 HT's for the durability price of 4. This means the cost of an additional step with WNII is 24.5 CP per step. With MMII, it is 26.7 CP per step. Indeed it does make a difference, but at the cost of flexibility.

Can you provide a complete rotation (with final phase, BB, PBP and so on) that is 14 touches for these tokens ? My rotations are not perfect and I would be glad to learn how a WNII rotation can do better. I banged my head too much on WN and WNII in the past.

[Gillionaire]

snip

No, actually upon closer inspection and trying out the rotations myself, I realized I also didn't use WN for my manual II tokens.
Where WN does come in handy for me is when I'm doing batch crafts using macros.. Either just a simple 2 step macro with Great Strides condition check built-in or 4-5 step macro with ToTT conditionals and CP branches.

But you're right, for completely manual crafting, barring just plain horrible ToTT procs (1 or less) I think master's mend approach is more reliable.

[Stupiduglytaru]

Once im in tonight will work it out properly, i always manual craft never ever macro. I adjust my rotations constantly depending on cp and rng fun-ness
Theres only certain crafts where you can actually fit in both waste not's as cross skills, i stayed away from wn when first reaching 3star all that time ago but upon doing ltw master books i gave it a shot, since then waste not II is always in my cross skills and with space WNII
I still use masters mend II for the first stage off the top of my head
CZ > IQ > SHII > PBP > PBP > RS > HT > HT (refresh SHII and CZ during this phase if plenty of good pops) may also be 2 RS cant remember
I take to either 20/80 10/80 depending when a SHII will fall off all depends on RNG goods
MMII now depending on cp and cz procs left i either pop SHII > WN (knowing that with no good pops i can still finish the BB phase of GS > Inno > Ingen > BB > CSII x2?
However if cp looks healthy enough to take a WNII rotation i will stick it in
With WN you can take 1 good proc without effecting its use

Sounds a bit confusing i know, but with these books the rotation can change quite a bit and it's pointless sticking to a strict rotation

if all goes to plan roughly 3 ht's from first 80/80 > 20/80 phase
WNII phase 80 > 45/80 (7 x HT) + 2 x HT to take to 25/80, BB phase leaving 15/80 for 2 x CSII finish

12 touches in total im missing some this i know XD

i will be toying around with a rotation tonight involving no MMII

Now in terms of the MMII vs WNII debate
i wrongly put SHII as 22cp we know its 25cp so

WNII 148 cp (includes 2x SHII) 8 Touches available 35/80 (which is still 4 durability turns available)
MMII 190 (includes SHII + 1/5 of the SHII to cover) 6 durability given
WNII 148÷8 touches = 18.5 per touch
MMII 190÷6 touches = 31.66 per touch

MMII dont get me wrong should be used unless another way is found without it, but the choice here really is between what we use after the first MMII phase whether it be a 2nd MM/MMII/Manipulation/WN/WNII

WNII comes out on top by along way

[Wisdombeer]

8FC3 lost isn't really such an amazing feat to brag about.. [...] I got most of mine without losing a single FC3.. then ran into issues on my WVR book with bad RNG
[...]and it seems you got some very good RNG during the bait phase[...]

You know, I saw topics created by players saying to SE they were loosing plenty FCIII (tens of FCIII... even one post with 30+ FCIII for one Master book II). Even if the numbers in these topics were maybe a bit exagerated, these players were really pissed off after tens of rotation. If you are happy with your rotation, keep it and dont change anything.

About baits : with two baits, you have a 58% chance of getting a good. Yes, mathematically, it's a 1 - 0.75 ^ 3 chance, roughly 58% (assuming the chance of Good condition is 25%, a number I read somewhere but cannot find now where). So I dont think my baits were especially lucky. What does count is : you MUST have the CP's to bait.

[Wisdombeer]

No, actually upon closer inspection and trying out the rotations myself, I realized I also didn't use WN for my manual II tokens.
Where WN does come in handy for me is when I'm doing batch crafts using macros..

Then we do the same. I'm also using WN for macros.

Once im in tonight will work it out properly[...]

I'm interested, please post a complete rotation. I'll try to make a few tests on my spreadsheet to see how WNII does fit after a MMII.

[Wisdombeer]

WNII 148 cp (includes 2x SHII) 8 Touches available 35/80 (which is still 4 durability turns available)
MMII 190 (includes SHII + 1/5 of the SHII to cover) 6 durability given
WNII 148÷8 touches = 18.5 per touch
MMII 190÷6 touches = 31.66 per touch

The 148 CP count for WNII is fine.
The 190 CP count for MMII is false. You forgot to count that WNII does take 40 durability out of your base 80. For MMII, that's zero. If you want to be fair, you must count 10 touches for MMII. You also forgot to consider that MMII has at least 8 chances for TOTT. With 25% chance of TOTT, this means 40 CP gain in means. In the end, it's more 150 / 10 = 15 per touch (according to your calculation).

Edit : BTW sorry, I'm stuck at 1k letters per post... that's pretty anoying.

[Stupiduglytaru]

depend on your BB phase whether a single cs or double cs you can never make full use of those 10 SHII so techinally speaking 7/8 SHII's if RNG is not popping a good but i see your point

I have a few ideas floating about whether its possible to WNII > Mani > WN tho how many goods will be required (during the mani phase is an issue) techinally the most CP efficient way to hit a 10+ touch rotation on paper (well off the top of my head right now driving XD)

MMII is king so far for your first phase we should really be comparing it to MM/2ndMMII/Mani/WN

[StouterTaru]

Not using WNII or MMII or MM or WN or Mani is clearly more efficient.

SHII > HTx5 = 25 CP for 5 touches, 5 CP/touch.

[xallever]

You're really not seeing Wisdombeer's points.

He made that point earlier about how WNII is only good in paper. What you did is simply write it out why this seems good in paper.

ToT's massive CP recovery is the reason why manipulation or MMII is good because an SHII costs just about one ToT. Meaning, for every time you proc ToT, that SH2 you just did was "practically free".

On top of that, ToT will enable more manipulation, giving a lot more durabilities even if they are costlier, just because ToT is giving a lot of CP back.