Gold Saucer outfits, gender locked?

[Teia]

Well I'm not saying the dudes can't wear a speedo, I'm merely saying that personally I don't like seeing it.

Here's the thing. "I don't like seeing this" is very often used as an argument for "it shouldn't exist." In essence, characters' options end where the feelings of one specific group begins. It's fine to say you don't like seeing something, but when it ever crosses the line into "others shouldn't be able to do this," as it so often does, then it becomes a deeply, frankly indefensibly selfish argument.

It's like back in the day when it was deeply socially unacceptable for women to wear pants, solely because men didn't like it. Or communities where men get ostracized by other men if they have long hair, for no reason other than "we the majority don't like it." Denying those people agency over their own presentation is never a good thing because their choices for others' comfort is not a fair trade. A little tolerance can go a long way.

[Lukha]

Well, I'm a straight guy, so of course I don't mind eye candy, even virtual eye candy. /shrug

I wouldn't enjoy seeing a dude walking around in a store in nothing but a speedo either, but if he were out at the beach then I could at least give him the benefit of the doubt, but still not enjoy seeing him.

And I am a straight female, who does not mind eye candy.

The difference is that most straight females don't find it offensive to see other females looking sexy or attractive, whereas it seems to be common for 'straight males' to claim that they find other males dressed in a sexy way offensive or disturbing. Can you explain why you find males being sexy so unsettling? Because if you actually, legitimately find yourself distressed by such an innocuous sight, you might have some issues you need to work through with a professional. On the other hand, if you're merely practicing hyperbole, claiming you find something 'disturbing' when you actually just don't like it (similar to a little kid who might claim to be 'allergic' to broccoli), you really ought to either stop, or at least choose your words more honestly in the future.

[myahele]

Oh God....no....my eyes.....

I can't believe people want this...

Well atleast now you know how some ladies felt when they saw the bunny outfit. On top of being forced to wear NIN/DRG AF and other gear that's remade to look skimpy of females.

Granted, FF14 isn't that bad when it comes to other games. And yes, people do want it; male exotic dancers exists because there's a sizeable female market for them

[Kurenai_Night]

Here's the thing. "I don't like seeing this" is very often used as an argument for "it shouldn't exist." It's fine to say... but when it crosses the line into "others shouldn't be able to do this," as it so often does, then it becomes an indefensibly selfish argument.

... A little tolerance can go a long way.

Oh I see. So we should be forced to deal with it because the proponents say the opposite? "I like seeing this." "It should exist." ?? How about the proponents have tolerance? Why is it that we are the only ones called selfish? The argument works both ways. A person who doesn't like it and doesn't think it should be implemented has just as much say so as the one who wants it implemented.. Besides all that, as game developers it is SE job to factor in costs. Does the amount of people wanting "this" or "that" justify the cost? Wether it be financial or manpower/time whatever... They haven't added it and don't seem to have any plans to do it. Nor should they.

[Niwashi]

On the other hand, if you're merely practicing hyperbole, claiming you find something 'disturbing' when you actually just don't like it (similar to a little kid who might claim to be 'allergic' to broccoli), you really ought to either stop, or at least choose your words more honestly in the future.

If you're going to talk about people choosing their words, then maybe you'd better look at what their actual words are. He never used the word "disturbing". He just said that he personally wouldn't enjoy it. He doesn't deserve your insults just because he doesn't care about something you'd like.

[kyuven]

Because you get reviled by one, doesn't mean it doesn't work that way. A lot of that is tied into the cultural reinforcement that exterior male sexuality somehow minimizes your own masculinity. Thats not a natural construct and is not present in every culture.

"Cultural reinforcement" isn't necessarily that way either. Some people are, independent of culture, uncomfortable with certain aspects of sexuality due to things including trauma, personal experience, or mental "disease."
Sexuality is one of the most complicated fields of psychology for a very good reason.
To use a cultural example, in Japan nudity in bathhouses is accepted, but there are still those, independent of their cultural reinforcement that "same gender nudity in the bath is fine" are uncomfortable around any sort of naked people. And the reasons for this are as numerous as branches on a tree.
"If you actually were a straight guy and saw a man in a speedo, there'd be no reaction." is presumptuous. There's even an argument that there are different gradients of "straight."
By your logic, since I look at a man and HAVE a reaction, even if that reaction is "uncomfortable queasiness," I am automatically not straight because, under your definition, straight men "should [have] no reaction" to naked men.
Conversely, by applying your logic differently, if a gay man looks at a naked woman and has any sort of reaction, he is automatically "not gay."
Your logic is unscientific and flawed. Sexuality is not something with any sort of absolutes to it.

Can you explain why you find males being sexy so unsettling? Because if you actually, legitimately find yourself distressed by such an innocuous sight, you might have some issues you need to work through with a professional.

"Distressed" has a gradient to it as well. The mentality mostly goes that men can often feel intimidated by other men's bodies. Remember that from a sexuality perspective, men can impregnate as many women as they want, while women can only be impregnated by a single man. There's a degree of competition that can "boil the blood" in certain men.
Rationally, most of us don't WANT to feel that way, but instinctively, deep down in our animal brains, a man expressing sexuality is seen as "competition."
Women have a similar reaction, tied to "slut shaming," but the reaction is overall different as men and women tend to always have different reactions to certain topics.
Me personally? I'm not attracted to men, never will be, and have trouble relating to them. My reasons are tied to childhood trauma.
However, I don't see anything wrong with a guy running around a game in a speedo, but I don't actually LIKE the appearance itself. In the same way I don't like Amon's hat.
Well, OK, I like men in speedos A LITTLE better than Amon's hat. Thing's atrocious.

[Niwashi]

Oh I see. So we should be forced to deal with it because the proponents say the opposite? "I like seeing this." "It should exist." ?? How about the proponents have tolerance? Why is it that we are the only ones called selfish? The argument works both ways. A person who doesn't like it and doesn't think it should be implemented has just as much say so as the one who wants it implemented.

I think that's part of the point. It should work both ways, but this content is being developed on the assumption that it doesn't.

A certain subset of men like seeing female characters in skimpy outfits but would rather not see males in skimpy outfits. So fine. They can get what they want. A similar subset of women like seeing male characters in skimpy outfits but would rather not see females in skimpy outfits. Well, tough. They're not allowed to have opinions on either point. That would go against what the men want.

It's that mismatch in what different players are being given that led to this whole discussion. If some players preference to see females in skimpy outfits justifies their inclusion in the Gold Saucer, than other players preference to see males in skimpy outfits justifies their inclusion as well. Or if you're going to go with the opinion that some players preference that males not be given more skimpy sexy outfits is reason enough for males not to get them, then it's equally reason for females not to get them either, because there are other players bothered by that.

So, regardless of whether you think the right to see them outweighs the right to not see them or vice-versa, it should do so equally for both genders. Either give a skimpy outfit to both genders or don't give one to either.

[Laeore]

"Cultural reinforcement" isn't necessarily that way either. Some people are, independent of culture, uncomfortable with certain aspects of sexuality due to things including trauma, personal experience, or mental "disease."
Sexuality is one of the most complicated fields of psychology for a very good reason.
To use a cultural example, in Japan nudity in bathhouses is accepted, but there are still those, independent of their cultural reinforcement that "same gender nudity in the bath is fine" are uncomfortable around any sort of naked people. And the reasons for this are as numerous as branches on a tree.
"If you actually were a straight guy and saw a man in a speedo, there'd be no reaction." is presumptuous. There's even an argument that there are different gradients of "straight."
By your logic, since I look at a man and HAVE a reaction, even if that reaction is "uncomfortable queasiness," I am automatically not straight because, under your definition, straight men "should [have] no reaction" to naked men.
Conversely, by applying your logic differently, if a gay man looks at a naked woman and has any sort of reaction, he is automatically "not gay."
Your logic is unscientific and flawed. Sexuality is not something with any sort of absolutes to it.

You're assuming I'm saying something that I did not say in my first post, while completely missing the point. Congrats! Free flawed and unscientific logic for everyone!

[Kurenai_Night]

I think..

I get what your saying and to some extent agree.. But based on reports I've seen, male gamers outweigh female gamers by quite a bit. So who is the game appealing to? Males. For instance, instead of going with Ramuh in one of the events FFXIV took part in, they went with Shiva because she is "sexy" according to their PR. Regardless of if that is a good thing or not, the fact is, most MMOs and games as a whole are focused and advertised towards men. Generally speaking, men want to see what? A woman in a bunny suit or a man in a bunny suit? if my 20+ years in gaming is anything to go on, I would say men (generally speaking!) want to see a woman in a bunny suit as opposed to a man in a bunny suit and I'm sure SE PR team would agree. Which is why it's marketed the way that it is. FFXIV isnt just on mass producing gear that looks skimpy on all females.. Most sets there is hardly a difference (mostly skirts on women as opposed to pants on a men).

[kyuven]

You're assuming I'm saying something that I did not say in my first post, while completely missing the point. Congrats! Free flawed and unscientific logic for everyone!

Here's what you said:

If you actually were a straight guy, then you'd see a guy in a speedo and there would be no reaction. It would be pure non-interest. Your revulsion indicates a fear that may be indicative of some necessary soul searching. Good luck with your sexuality, friend!

Here is exactly what you said, but applying the exact logic you apply in reverse:

If you actually were a gay guy, then you'd see a girl in a speedo and there would be no reaction. It would be pure non-interest. Your revulsion indicates a fear that may be indicative of some necessary soul searching. Good luck with your sexuality, friend!

Here is what you said with the genders reversed:

If you actually were a straight girl, then you'd see a girl in a speedo and there would be no reaction. It would be pure non-interest. Your revulsion indicates a fear that may be indicative of some necessary soul searching. Good luck with your sexuality, friend!

Here is what you said with the genders reversed and the logic flipped:

If you actually were a lesbian, then you'd see a guy in a speedo and there would be no reaction. It would be pure non-interest. Your revulsion indicates a fear that may be indicative of some necessary soul searching. Good luck with your sexuality, friend!