Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[Kona_Nightwind]

At least according to Yoshi-P (http://dengekionline.com/elem/000/000/991/991969/), SMN's should receive some "adjustment" before Heavensward. As for what those "adjustments" may be, I can only hazard as to guess that it'll be either asn mp cost reduction of some abilities, or a slight potency/ % change to Aetherflow/ Energy Drain (in regards to mp returns).

Why does thread continue with the SE has started a conspiracy against SMN. Some one actually posted that.

[Kona_Nightwind]

That's the thing, though. DRG was in the exact same state SMN is currently in. With better gear than was possible for cutting-edge progression, DRG could clear FCoB before they were buffed. Same is true now of SMN. With better gear than was used for progression, SMN can currently clear FCoB. Both jobs had to "overgear" content (probably closer to what the devs intended for ilvl) in order to clear it. DRG got buffed to not need to overgear. SMN still has to overgear. Why?

Its not even close to the same. Dead DPS do no DPS. Go ask any healer if there is a healing difference between DRG pre-buff and healing a SMN now. Plenty of SMN have cleared T13 with level appropriate gear.

[Kona_Nightwind]

And yet DRG got fixed.

And yet BLM got fixed.

And yet WAR got fixed.

Noticing a trend yet? Also, "skewed."

And as posted earlier SMN will be fixed.
/end thread?

[Orrias]

Why does thread continue with the SE has started a conspiracy against SMN. Some one actually posted that.

I don't understand you're saying. :/

[Viridiana]

Its not even close to the same. Dead DPS do no DPS. Go ask any healer if there is a healing difference between DRG pre-buff and healing a SMN now. Plenty of SMN have cleared T13 with level appropriate gear.

The only difference is that DRG was a burden to heal. In level-appropriate gear, they would be clearing FCoB without the buffs they got. Were the buffs necessary despite what I just said? Yes. That doesn't mean that they weren't in the same situation SMN is in now.

And as posted earlier SMN will be fixed.
/end thread?

And yet the other classes got fixed quickly. Heck, DRG barely had time to get a reputation as being bad in FCoB before they got fixed. SMN, meanwhile, is languishing patch after patch. . .

[Kona_Nightwind]

I don't understand you're saying. :/

Sorry I'm on my phone and try to shorten things. Basically all I'm saying is people are making a mountain out of a mole hill. And I find the doom and gloom ubsurd. Someone actually started a thread saying there is a conspiracy against SMNs. SMN have been average for a few months and people are loosing there minds. And comparing SMN to DRGs and WAR before there buffs is silly, the gaps those classes faced were much much wider.

[ViviAnimus]

If you can stand still, get procs, constant crits, then your numbes as a BLM are going to be high. If you get a fight with medium intervals, mana breaks, DoT ticks when a boss jumps, some movement, short overall duration of 'hard content' (e.g. <10 minutes), then a SMN would in a good place.


As I have stated before. Movement heavy fights are not necessarily bad for BLM. A good BLM will counter movement easily, as they should. I don't think you are listening. Even in fights with mana breaks, dot ticks, movement, SMN still gets shat on by BLM. SMN, as I have said before, is almost never in a good place in comparison to BLM. It simply gets outclassed in every single department. T9 might be an exception. And even so, the difference in DPS in T9 between a BLM and SMN is so small, you can't even use it as an argument. Right now, for all content almost, BLM is better than SMN. You can dribble all you wish about down time, movement and so on, this is the fact. BLM > SMN in terms of Single target DPS, AoE DPS, resources, burst, utility and also ease to play the class. To then go on to continue this mad dribble about battles being different is ultimately stupid, because one, it isn't true and two even if it were true, we don't see it translate itself into the actual battles. Why don't you look at the facts that SMN is outclassed in about every single department and that therefore it needs a buff.

Think about it; easily Bane'able adds, multiple breaks for mp regen, DoT's ticking when he jumps, forced movement via slides/ dodging. It's the most SMN friendly fight ingame. An equally skilled/ gear BLM won't beat a SMN on Levi EX.

Think about it, Flares everywhere, Flares that burst down enemies and do so much more damage than your dots. When the boss jumps, he becomes invulnerable as well? Last time I checked, the dots don't do anything when a boss jumps away. Also, after the boss comes back, a BLM can burst immediately, whereas a SMN can't unless your dots are still up when the boss is back. What are your numbers on Levi? I'll see if we can collect cards from Levi and share you my BLM numbers and we shall discuss.

I don't even... :/

You don't even? Before the buff, BLM could do like 500 DPS on T6 and T8. Do crazy numbers on T7 and T9. After the buff, BLM simply got an even bigger lead? Perhaps the video is still lingering around where two top tier BLM showed a buff wasn't all that needed. When the buff was there, BLM knew at least another +40 DPS. SMN since then, has been in BLM's shadow.

Phase 3 and 4 of Turn 9 are not optimal for BLM over a SMN; two targets means no Fire II in P3, coupled with the Supernova dodging.


Another laugable and stupid argument. BLM ST damage shits on SMN damage and the triple Flare on the two targets far outshines anything a SMN could do. It's so funny that you use Supernove dodging as well, as if that stuff means anything at all. Mate, if you're a good BLM, that stuff doesn't even phase you.

SMN's don't "triumph over BLM" in FCoB as we have established for the umpteenth time. :P
If you just want examples of relavent content (where you would have both a BLM and SMN in the group), then it just depends on who gets in the damage first, or is allowed to.
If you want examples of mechanics that favour SMN over BLM, then:-
T12: If Black fires are placed at 6y (each) away from Phoenix, you can't hit any of them with Fire II or Flare.
Savage T6: Devour.
Savage T8: Movement laden fight.
Savage T9: P3 and P4 do not favour a BLM over a SMN.

T12, if blackfires are places correctly, Flare is definitely an option and makes Bane look like a pussy move. Also, the add benu phase and Flare is a huge DPS increase. If you're going to bane, I hope you're ok with risking benus dying too soon. Also, Flaring benus that spawn (first phase) is very good. Baning benus on the other hand is laughable. You get like two-three ticks. You might as well Fester.
And again this movement crap. You don't seem to realise what a good BLM can do in movement heavy fights. Watch some Aikaal on T9 savage, surely there are others as well. For T8, it's not THAT movement heavy and it can again, be countered by playing intelligently. Basically T8 savage might be the only fights where it's useful to have a SMN. Even then, manaward and apoc on that fight make BLM so much better than SMN. So, what now?
Also, since you speak of these things as so beneficial for SMN, would you mind sharing some of your own numbers (DPS) so I can kinda see what you're really talking about. What's your average DPS on T12?
Might I also add that on SMN, your dots can fall off because of heavy movement, your Shadow Flare is pretty useless? The damage output between BLM and SMN is probably nothing on that fight, even more so, I would say that equally skilled players will show BLM win. Why do I think this, because I've seen charts of Final Coil. The DPS difference is real. Even in T13, where movement is so heavy, you have downtime for MP, SMN still gets outDPSed by 25, probably even more. What does that tell you?

[scarebearz]

And yet the other classes got fixed quickly. Heck, DRG barely had time to get a reputation as being bad in FCoB before they got fixed. SMN, meanwhile, is languishing patch after patch. . .

For real or troll? xD

[Kona_Nightwind]

The only difference is that DRG was a burden to heal. In level-appropriate gear, they would be clearing FCoB without the buffs they got. Were the buffs necessary despite what I just said? Yes. That doesn't mean that they weren't in the same situation SMN is in now.



And yet the other classes got fixed quickly. Heck, DRG barely had time to get a reputation as being bad in FCoB before they got fixed. SMN, meanwhile, is languishing patch after patch. . .

Being a huge burden to heal is a glaring difference.

SMN have not been below in DPS for patch after patch. And DRG in no world got fixed quickly.

[Hiruke]

Think about it; easily Bane'able adds, multiple breaks for mp regen, DoT's ticking when he jumps, forced movement via slides/ dodging. It's the most SMN friendly fight ingame. An equally skilled/ gear BLM won't beat a SMN on Levi EX.

Think about it, Flares everywhere, Flares that burst down enemies and do so much more damage than your dots. When the boss jumps, he becomes invulnerable as well? Last time I checked, the dots don't do anything when a boss jumps away. Also, after the boss comes back, a BLM can burst immediately, whereas a SMN can't unless your dots are still up when the boss is back. What are your numbers on Levi? I'll see if we can collect cards from Levi and share you my BLM numbers and we shall discuss.

Eh, the real answer to Levi EX is that it's not relevant content. If all endgame was designed like Levi EX, SMN would probably be in a good place. I've always done absurd dps in Levi EX on my SMN, and found various tricks to push it even higher. I've definitely never been outdone by any BLM, including myself. Bosses can definitely be damaged by DoTs when in an "unattackable state", unless they specifically have an Invulnerability buff placed on them (like Titan gains when hitting certain % health and jumping away).

You can beat any equivalent BLM normally in Levi EX, but you can make it extra ridiculous by Bane onto the tail. SMN is the only job that can deal heavy damage to the "wrong" part of Levi with minimal damage blowback (since Bane all 3 DoTs only counts as one attack).

Agree with everything else though. BLM > SMN in basically all ways, and certainly adjustments would be appreciated.