Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[ViviAnimus]

No, at the status quo, mechanics of a fight do not matter greatly, because BLM will triumph. The fights where SMN wins over BLM is very slim and I would argue, simply do not exist anymore.
I have never seen a SMN do more than me on my BLM on Levi EX, but there it should be pretty close.
The charts comparing DPS are there for you to see, although they do not include savage coil. This is what happened. The magic classes were always kinda weak, but SMN was somewhat stronger. Then BLM got buffed to where it was quite easy to outperform SMN. Over time, more BLM got increasingly good (skill wise). You might have seen the numbers BLM like Lipton Icetea did before the buff. They were already beating SMN by quite a bit pre buff. The point that all jobs work in different ways, again, is true, but also complete nonsense. Extremely movement heavy fights would mean a BLM wouldn't be able to do anything at all. In every fight that involves movement, BLM can work its way around it. Actually, movement is worked around so well, that it almost isn't even a DPS loss anymore. Name me one mechanic that hugely favours SMN and how it makes the fight so that SMN will triumph over BLM.

I agree with your final statement. Hence my suggestions.

[Kona_Nightwind]

I wasn't even talking about DRG DPS. I was talking about how it would die to unavoidable mechanics that every other class could easily eat. If a class can't clear content in the same level of gear that every other class can its broken. And yes some DRG that got special treatment from very good groups could clear the content, but they were exceptions not the rule.

[ViviAnimus]

I am going to start quoting to avoid confusion

[Kona_Nightwind]

You can't balance a class by the top 5%, it needs to be done by the average players. Does smn need some work? Sure they do. Are they behind enough to warrant a change before an expansion? No.

[ViviAnimus]

But please tell me why comparing the top tier player base to each other is somehow less convincing than comparing random "average" players. Man, the DPS difference from the data differs from 40-80, there are glaring MP issues, slightly inferior utility, bad stat optimization and that isn't enough? What the hell more do you need. You can stop pretending you know what you're talking about or come with some convincing arguments :P. Seriously, SMN has been treated like absolute shit for how many months now?

[Orrias]

Does smn need some work? Sure they do. Are they behind enough to warrant a change before an expansion? No.

At least according to Yoshi-P (http://dengekionline.com/elem/000/000/991/991969/), SMN's should receive some "adjustment" before Heavensward. As for what those "adjustments" may be, I can only hazard as to guess that it'll be either asn mp cost reduction of some abilities, or a slight potency/ % change to Aetherflow/ Energy Drain (in regards to mp returns).

[Viridiana]

I wasn't even talking about DRG DPS. I was talking about how it would die to unavoidable mechanics that every other class could easily eat. If a class can't clear content in the same level of gear that every other class can its broken. And yes some DRG that got special treatment from very good groups could clear the content, but they were exceptions not the rule.

That's the thing, though. DRG was in the exact same state SMN is currently in. With better gear than was possible for cutting-edge progression, DRG could clear FCoB before they were buffed. Same is true now of SMN. With better gear than was used for progression, SMN can currently clear FCoB. Both jobs had to "overgear" content (probably closer to what the devs intended for ilvl) in order to clear it. DRG got buffed to not need to overgear. SMN still has to overgear. Why?

[Orrias]

No, at the status quo, mechanics of a fight do not matter greatly, because BLM will triumph. The fights where SMN wins over BLM is very slim and I would argue, simply do not exist anymore.

If you can stand still, get procs, constant crits, then your numbes as a BLM are going to be high. If you get a fight with medium intervals, mana breaks, DoT ticks when a boss jumps, some movement, short overall duration of 'hard content' (e.g. <10 minutes), then a SMN would in a good place.

I have never seen a SMN do more than me on my BLM on Levi EX, but there it should be pretty close.

Think about it; easily Bane'able adds, multiple breaks for mp regen, DoT's ticking when he jumps, forced movement via slides/ dodging. It's the most SMN friendly fight ingame. An equally skilled/ gear BLM won't beat a SMN on Levi EX.

The charts comparing DPS are there for you to see, although they do not include savage coil.

The most relavent content (in order to gauge) the 2 Jobs (in terms) of dps, would FCoB and Savage Coil. BLM is better for FCoB, but for Savage SCoB, I don't know. From my experience, SMN is ahead of BLM for T6 (Savage) and T9 (Savage).

This is what happened. The magic classes were always kinda weak, but SMN was somewhat stronger. Then BLM got buffed to where it was quite easy to outperform SMN. Over time, more BLM got increasingly good (skill wise). You might have seen the numbers BLM like Lipton Icetea did before the buff. They were already beating SMN by quite a bit pre buff.

I don't even... :/

The point that all jobs work in different ways, again, is true, but also complete nonsense. Extremely movement heavy fights would mean a BLM wouldn't be able to do anything at all. In every fight that involves movement, BLM can work its way around it. Actually, movement is worked around so well, that it almost isn't even a DPS loss anymore.

Phase 3 and 4 of Turn 9 are not optimal for BLM over a SMN; two targets means no Fire II in P3, coupled with the Supernova dodging.

Name me one mechanic that hugely favours SMN and how it makes the fight so that SMN will triumph over BLM.

SMN's don't "triumph over BLM" in FCoB as we have established for the umpteenth time. :P

If you just want examples of relavent content (where you would have both a BLM and SMN in the group), then it just depends on who gets in the damage first, or is allowed to.


If you want examples of mechanics that favour SMN over BLM, then:-

T12: If Black fires are placed at 6y (each) away from Phoenix, you can't hit any of them with Fire II or Flare.

Savage T6: Devour, more Blights.

Savage T8: Movement laden fight.

Savage T9: P3 and P4 do not favour a BLM over a SMN.


Then problem is, you asked for a "SMN to vastly triumph over a BLM", which is feasable given that SMN's don't have the same Job mechanics (i.e. relatively infinite mp pool for the duration of a fight), or access to the 'nuke' ability (i.e. Fester), as and when they choose.

[Kona_Nightwind]

But please tell me why comparing the top tier player base to each other is somehow less convincing than comparing random "average" players. Man, the DPS difference from the data differs from 40-80, there are glaring MP issues, slightly inferior utility, bad stat optimization and that isn't enough? What the hell more do you need. You can stop pretending you know what you're talking about or come with some convincing arguments :P. Seriously, SMN has been treated like absolute shit for how many months now?

The top tier players are a scuede and small sample size. The average player is who supports this game financially. With out them there is no game. If you want to go see a game who catters to the top 5% go see Wildstar. This entire SMN are so bad its game breaking is absurd. Its more of a I'm no longer the top but now on the bottom but not by that much, so I'm going to throw a fit.

[Viridiana]

The top tier players are a scuede and small sample size. The average player is who supports this game financially. With out them there is no game. If you want to go see a game who catters to the top 5% go see Wildstar. This entire SMN are so bad its game breaking is absurd. Its more of a I'm no longer the top but now on the bottom but not by that much, so I'm going to throw a fit.

And yet DRG got fixed.

And yet BLM got fixed.

And yet WAR got fixed.

Noticing a trend yet? Also, "skewed."