Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[ViviAnimus]

The all jobs work in different ways has been debunked over and over again and is simply not true. It's not that in the sense that no matter how you hold a fight, look at it, BLM will outperform SMN in every turn and pretty much every fight. The only way you will outdo a BLM is when there are extremely movement heavy mechanics. In fights where SMN should reign supreme (T11 and 13), it still gets smashed to shits by BLM. On T10, where they shouldn't be too far behind, they get smashed even harder. BLM has a higher potentional in every fight. It's that simple. Overall, BLM is just so much better in every fight, in every mechanic.

For what SMN does and has to do, it should do more than SMN, at least in the ST department. 40 DPS difference is in no way or shape justified. It's based on raw DPS. When we look at other viriables such as burst, movement heavy fights and what have you, one can not help but conclude that none really favour SMN. There is no single mechanic or way of a fight that favours a SMN over a BLM and that is a problem. Although I am glad, that your terminology seems to have changed a bit from the sheer acceptance to potentional ways to close gaps. What SMN needs, all that it needs, is a harder hitting Fester, a shorter cooldown on Enkindle and more MP and the Aetherflow to scale with it).

[Kona_Nightwind]

Weren't SMN ahead of most classes in the first 2 turns of coil. And now that they are slightly behind you are losing your crap. Its not like you are behind like DRG or WAR were before there buffs. 2.0 is almost over get over it, wait to see what 3.0 has in store. SE does a really good job on balance. If you want perfect balance you may want to play a different type of game.

If it truly was an issue there would have been a greater shift in SMN class play. If you really want to get SE's attention get a few thousand SMNs to re-role.

[Viridiana]

Its not like you are behind like DRG or WAR were before there buffs. 2.0 is almost over get over it, wait to see what 3.0 has in store.

Actually it's almost exactly like DRG was. The only difference is that DRG would visibly die before the enrage to show you it wasn't geared enough. Everyone knew that with more gear DRG would clear FCoB, and we all still know that with enough gear SMN can clear FCoB. Heck, it doesn't even need to be the SMN getting the gear, if everyone else can pick up the slack.

As an outsider looking it, I think it's really, really odd that DRG got a buff and SMN didn't. I agree that at this point waiting for 3.0 is the thing to do, but that doesn't really excuse going an entire patch cycle underpowered. . .

[Kona_Nightwind]

I wasn't even talking about DRG DPS. I was talking about how it would die to unavoidable mechanics that every other class could easily eat. If a class can't clear content in the same level of gear that every other class can its broken. And yes some DRG that got special treatment from very good groups could clear the content, but they were exceptions not the rule.

[Kona_Nightwind]

You can't balance a class by the top 5%, it needs to be done by the average players. Does smn need some work? Sure they do. Are they behind enough to warrant a change before an expansion? No.

[Viridiana]

I wasn't even talking about DRG DPS. I was talking about how it would die to unavoidable mechanics that every other class could easily eat. If a class can't clear content in the same level of gear that every other class can its broken. And yes some DRG that got special treatment from very good groups could clear the content, but they were exceptions not the rule.

That's the thing, though. DRG was in the exact same state SMN is currently in. With better gear than was possible for cutting-edge progression, DRG could clear FCoB before they were buffed. Same is true now of SMN. With better gear than was used for progression, SMN can currently clear FCoB. Both jobs had to "overgear" content (probably closer to what the devs intended for ilvl) in order to clear it. DRG got buffed to not need to overgear. SMN still has to overgear. Why?

[Orrias]

The all jobs work in different ways has been debunked over and over again and is simply not true.

I don't know what you're basing this on, but you've essentially just said that encounter mechanics don't mean anything, nor do Job dynamics, as they are all equalised...

I don't remember ever being beaten by a BLM on Levi EX., which is a fight that heavily favours SMN's over jobs.

Now, BLM will outperform SMN in every turn.

Maybe. I don't know, I haven't a sufficient amount of read outs on Savage SCoB to know whether that statement is true or not.

The only way you will outdo a BLM is when there are extremely movement heavy mechanics.

Isn't that my point: "All dps Jobs work in different ways, and flucuate in 'performance' on an encounter-to-encounter basis", which you believe is "simple not true"?

In fights where SMN should reign supreme (T11 and 13), it still gets smashed to shits by BLM. On T10, where they shouldn't be too far behind, they get smashed even harder. BLM has a higher potentional in every fight. It's that simple. Overall, BLM is just so much better in every fight, in every mechanic.

For what SMN does and has to do, it should do more than SMN, at least in the ST department. 40 DPS difference is in no way or shape justified. It's based on raw DPS. When we look at other viriables such as burst, movement heavy fights and what have you, one can not help but conclude that none really favour SMN. There is no single mechanic or way of a fight that favours a SMN over a BLM and that is a problem.

SMN's don't have the sustained dps, over a large scale fight, (to compete against BLM's) because of Fester's CD and mp starvation.

Weren't SMN ahead of most classes in the first 2 turns of coil. And now that they are slightly behind you are losing your crap. Its not like you are behind like DRG or WAR were before there buffs. 2.0 is almost over get over it, wait to see what 3.0 has in store. SE does a really good job on balance. If you want perfect balance you may want to play a different type of game.

If it truly was an issue there would have been a greater shift in SMN class play. If you really want to get SE's attention get a few thousand SMNs to re-role.

I couldn't agree more. 'Some times you're up, sometimes you're down'. If there was a sharp incline in SMN representation in FCoB (or just in general), and if it's been monitored on frequent basis, then something would have been done about it fairly quickly.

Job balance in FF14 ARR is something which I think is vastly under appreciated. Most other MMO's have either had to tune classes via patches on a frequent basis or overhaul the initial system at some point down the line. Be grateful that there isn't a flavour of the month classes/ job, yet...

[ViviAnimus]

No, at the status quo, mechanics of a fight do not matter greatly, because BLM will triumph. The fights where SMN wins over BLM is very slim and I would argue, simply do not exist anymore.
I have never seen a SMN do more than me on my BLM on Levi EX, but there it should be pretty close.
The charts comparing DPS are there for you to see, although they do not include savage coil. This is what happened. The magic classes were always kinda weak, but SMN was somewhat stronger. Then BLM got buffed to where it was quite easy to outperform SMN. Over time, more BLM got increasingly good (skill wise). You might have seen the numbers BLM like Lipton Icetea did before the buff. They were already beating SMN by quite a bit pre buff. The point that all jobs work in different ways, again, is true, but also complete nonsense. Extremely movement heavy fights would mean a BLM wouldn't be able to do anything at all. In every fight that involves movement, BLM can work its way around it. Actually, movement is worked around so well, that it almost isn't even a DPS loss anymore. Name me one mechanic that hugely favours SMN and how it makes the fight so that SMN will triumph over BLM.

I agree with your final statement. Hence my suggestions.

[Orrias]

No, at the status quo, mechanics of a fight do not matter greatly, because BLM will triumph. The fights where SMN wins over BLM is very slim and I would argue, simply do not exist anymore.

If you can stand still, get procs, constant crits, then your numbes as a BLM are going to be high. If you get a fight with medium intervals, mana breaks, DoT ticks when a boss jumps, some movement, short overall duration of 'hard content' (e.g. <10 minutes), then a SMN would in a good place.

I have never seen a SMN do more than me on my BLM on Levi EX, but there it should be pretty close.

Think about it; easily Bane'able adds, multiple breaks for mp regen, DoT's ticking when he jumps, forced movement via slides/ dodging. It's the most SMN friendly fight ingame. An equally skilled/ gear BLM won't beat a SMN on Levi EX.

The charts comparing DPS are there for you to see, although they do not include savage coil.

The most relavent content (in order to gauge) the 2 Jobs (in terms) of dps, would FCoB and Savage Coil. BLM is better for FCoB, but for Savage SCoB, I don't know. From my experience, SMN is ahead of BLM for T6 (Savage) and T9 (Savage).

This is what happened. The magic classes were always kinda weak, but SMN was somewhat stronger. Then BLM got buffed to where it was quite easy to outperform SMN. Over time, more BLM got increasingly good (skill wise). You might have seen the numbers BLM like Lipton Icetea did before the buff. They were already beating SMN by quite a bit pre buff.

I don't even... :/

The point that all jobs work in different ways, again, is true, but also complete nonsense. Extremely movement heavy fights would mean a BLM wouldn't be able to do anything at all. In every fight that involves movement, BLM can work its way around it. Actually, movement is worked around so well, that it almost isn't even a DPS loss anymore.

Phase 3 and 4 of Turn 9 are not optimal for BLM over a SMN; two targets means no Fire II in P3, coupled with the Supernova dodging.

Name me one mechanic that hugely favours SMN and how it makes the fight so that SMN will triumph over BLM.

SMN's don't "triumph over BLM" in FCoB as we have established for the umpteenth time. :P

If you just want examples of relavent content (where you would have both a BLM and SMN in the group), then it just depends on who gets in the damage first, or is allowed to.


If you want examples of mechanics that favour SMN over BLM, then:-

T12: If Black fires are placed at 6y (each) away from Phoenix, you can't hit any of them with Fire II or Flare.

Savage T6: Devour, more Blights.

Savage T8: Movement laden fight.

Savage T9: P3 and P4 do not favour a BLM over a SMN.


Then problem is, you asked for a "SMN to vastly triumph over a BLM", which is feasable given that SMN's don't have the same Job mechanics (i.e. relatively infinite mp pool for the duration of a fight), or access to the 'nuke' ability (i.e. Fester), as and when they choose.

[ViviAnimus]

I am going to start quoting to avoid confusion