Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[SomnusNemoris]

Comparing the DPS charts is a bit silly; I just see it as something fun to do. SMN's numbers depend far too much on the performance of the others in the party. If adds die slower, that's more DPS for the SMN. More Bennus, more DPS for the SMN. If someone dies, more DPS for the SMN. This is true for BLM as well, but the impact is greater on SMN given the reliance on DoTs. I feel like T11 is the only one where you could have a fair comparison between jobs.

I'm sure Rational Gaze is pretty good, but look at the data on that chart. In every turn, his BLM and BRD died once. That makes it a lot easier to reach higher numbers. My best T13 for example was because the BLM died; I've yet to come close to that on a clean run.

Comparing DPS charts in silly in what way? Black Mage numbers also depend greatly on the performance of the team. If adds die slower = more time to flare. If more benus are alive = more targets to AoE. You do realise one extra flare on two targets = from 3-5k damage, right? Is the SCH using Selene?To make the claim that it is excessively more true for SMN to perform well in the expense of others is ludicrous and simply untrue. If you would have died instead of the BLM, his numbers would also be higher, probably a lot higher since it means an extra flare on the adds for example? You also have no data as to when the BRD and BLM died and what the circumstances are.
Another argument is that yours actually works against you. So basically, you base your argument on the uncertain premisse that these players died on important times in order that the SMN DPS is increased (e.g adds die slower = more uptime on dots), yet it is still miles behind BLM DPS. In other words, SMN DPS is usually lower in perfect scenario runs whereas a BLM will not really suffer that greatly. Seems to me that this is an argument to use for a SMN buff rather than anything else.
In simple terminology:

You make the claim that Rational Gaze his numbers are a lot easier to reach because of people dying
So we can conclude out of this that in a perfect scenario, his DPS would be less
In a perfect scenario SMN falls even further behind BLM.
According to you, SMN benefits more greatly from people dying
Therefore the discrepancy is even larger at the expense of the SMN dying in BLM's favour.

I have seen plently of BLM videos where people did not die where they easily outperform Rational Gaze. So how does your comment even work?

[scarebearz]

Lots of talk about "Rational Gaze"

If you check this guys posts on Reddit, you'll see that he pretty much says people are being over-dramatic about the SMN issues and that the gap between BLM and SMN when equally skilled is not that huge. He also says his dps are "more or less in line with the blms in my fc".

He does however think SMN should have a slightly higher potential dps than BLM.

[Sunako]

I have seen plently of BLM videos where people did not die where they easily outperform Rational Gaze. So how does your comment even work?

Where did you watch these videos? Can you link some t13 fight where blm can do over 500 dps?

[SomnusNemoris]

Then he is clearly mistaken. Either Rational Gaze is not nearly as skilled as you for example or he's simply wrong.
Rational Gaze DPS T10 - 502 ilvl 135 weapon and ilvl 130
Aikaal DPS (BLM) T10 583 ilvl 126 weapon = 130.

Rational Gaze DPS T11: 495 with same gear
Elimus Rose DPS T11= 543 ilvl 122 and 135 weapon

Rational Gaze DPS T12 505 same gear
Lavitz DPS T12 543 135 weapon ilvl 127

Rational Gaze DPS T13 - 495 same gear
Ayase DPS T13 - 515 - 135 weapon ilvl 126

Of course you can ask yourself the question about who and what is equally skilled, but I would argue that BLM getting close to his DPS with 10ilvl lower than his, again, shows you that the gap isn't small at all. I don't think that 'because he says so' is a valid argument, it's one from authority. But I am willing to bet you, that Rational Gaze is just as skilled as any other good BLM is. Getting his amount of DPS on fights is a good achievement for SMN.

@ Sunako, I never spoke about T13 in particular, it's the only fight where BLM and SMN are relatively close. Getting over 500 DPS easily on T13 is very much possible though, considering I, as a mediocre BLM, end with 495 most of the time. Although Aikaal streams on Twich now, if you want to see how easily he smashes these SMN records
I am going to sign off the forums, not really interested in writing on them, just thought I'd give my two cents in the all. I am glad overall most of us can agree to at least some buff. 6-8% more damage would be nice.
Cheers for the intersting discussions and input.

[ShinryuReishiki]

Comparing DPS charts in silly in what way?

It's silly to compare them because there are far too many variables. Strategy, party composition, mechanics, etc. all play a large role in how the numbers will turn out. Most groups will favor a faster clear over letting one person have slightly higher numbers. You can't just look at one person's performance out a group of 8 and deem them any more/less skilled than a person in another group.

Black Mage numbers also depend greatly on the performance of the team.

I agree; I never said this was not the case. I only said that a SMN will lose more than a BLM will. Regardless of how fast an enemy dies, a BLM is getting the full damage from its spell. A SMN is relying on DoTs; if the enemy dies before you get the full worth of that spell, it's simply lost. If I cast Bio 2, Miasma, Bio on a target and it dies 15s later, 320 potency just goes poof; that's more potency than an AF3 Fire. The only way a BLM would lose DPS in a similar fashion is if the target were to die mid-cast, but SMN is also vulnerable to that.

You also have no data as to when the BRD and BLM died and what the circumstances are.

While it would be nice to know the circumstances, the numbers are low enough to paint a picture. A BLM doesn't suddenly drop to i110 numbers by dying at the last moment of 13+ minute fight, for example.

So we can conclude out of this that in a perfect scenario, his DPS would be less

Yes.

In a perfect scenario SMN falls even further behind BLM.

Yes.

According to you, SMN benefits more greatly from people dying

The point was not that people dying is a DPS increase. The point was that as party DPS increases, a SMN's DPS will decrease. Dying is simply a means of countering that effect in a better geared group.

Therefore the discrepancy is even larger at the expense of the SMN dying in BLM's favour.

Probably, but that's not the situation we have here.

I have seen plently of BLM videos where people did not die where they easily outperform Rational Gaze. So how does your comment even work?

You seem to think I'm arguing about the gap between SMN and BLM? My argument is that using Rational Gaze's numbers as some sort of metric for what SMN can or cannot do is foolish. You keep dropping that name as if it means something, but due to the deaths in the encounters, those numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. If you have to use someone off that chart to compare, you'd be better off using Avalen Koma or Alethea Wyste.

[SomnusNemoris]

I can agree with that, mate. I do agree with you fully on the part that certain circumstances vary. Although we can look at the presence of NIN/BRD. The mechanics, I would disagree. Maybe T11 who is on the Cube, although I would say that if you get 500 DPS out of T11 as a SMN, you are most likely to be on the cube. Or perhaps dotting the egg and orb at the same time. But on T10, 12 and 13, things are never radically different. Especially when it comes to the AoE scenario. Also, I would argue that the scenario can also not necessarily be in favour of BLM and that therefore we must look at this from a neutral perspective. But ultimately, you are right to a certain extent. The gap in DPS when comparing the charts, to me, kind of confirm what I have been thinking and experiencing all the time. It might be a sort of confirmation bias. I must also say though, I only used Rational Gaze as an example as he comes from a respected performing guild and therefore I assume that his skill level is about as high, a bit lower or equally as high as top tier BLM. And from that I compare the DPS. I guess that even in cases of people dying and thus more uptime of dots for example still leaves quite a big gap. Well, Rukie would claim that 40DPS is not a great amount.
I just hope SMN gets some love. Personally I would like to be able to switch from BLM to SMN in order to maximize DPS by mastering the two classes rather than just mastering BLM and pounding SMN all the way and I think that demand is fair. But anyway, this will be the final message on my part. I've given my two cents, it's nice to have a respectul discussion. Thanks.

[Minorinz]

oh my, my previous post got removed by a dev? o.o
I don't know if I should be happy or sad

[scarebearz]

Well, Rukie would claim that 40DPS is not a great amount.

It's enough of a gap to want a buff (if 40 dps difference is accurate, i suspect overall it's more like 25), but I don't think there is a huge difference between 500 and 540 or 500 and 525.

It would certainly not stop me maining blm, were it the other way around, nor would it stop me clearing content, as many on here suggest.

[Cebo]

It's enough of a gap to want a buff (if 40 dps difference is accurate, i suspect overall it's more like 25), but I don't think there is a huge difference between 500 and 540 or 500 and 525.

It would certainly not stop me maining blm, were it the other way around, nor would it stop me clearing content, as many on here suggest.

I think the problem is exacerbated because of how far ahead melee are to ranged. Because of this, there's only room for one caster job, so SMN and BLM are competing for that spot. The single target DPS difference may only be 25-40, but when BLM also bring much superior AOE, burst, resource management, and utility, it pretty much leaves SMN neglected.

Another idea for the expansion is to make SMN a semi-support job like the Bard, giving them pets that provide utility like party MP/TP regen, DPS buffs, etc. In this way, their lower damage to BLM can be justified, and Bards would no longer be a requirement in every raid comp.

[Sanguisio]

oh my, my previous post got removed by a dev? o.o
I don't know if I should be happy or sad

lol I got temp ban because of this thread ^^ count yourself lucky.


-

Please can we drop this crappy argument. SMN needs a buff, DPS wise its behind BLM, Mana wise its stupid in long fights. Yes it beats BLM in utility and AOEing over big distances, e.g. BLMs can't flare both pairs in t10, or DPS everything on the map regardless of position. But also its crap SMN dps on adds etc is dependent on party performance.


IMO-
-DOTs should tick regardless if mob is target able or not, providing they were applied before this happens. So much wasted DPS. Afaik they don't tick, please correct me if wrong and apologies if so, but im sure not because I have never gotten a thunder proc in these situations.)

-The time taken to get to full DPS, yes its only a few GCDs but BLM can be back at full DPS in 2, par MNKs so can every other DPS class. Yes you can apply DOTs so when things come back they are ready ticking, but providing my above comment is correct.