I think its time BRD get some loving

[Sessurea]

And this is true story. FC mate did a pug for T10.

BAD Bard (115 Shiva bow, Ironworks Chest, Ironworks Legs - yes seriously.) - 260 DPS
Normal Monk - 450 DPS

What on earth are you trying to say here? I seen monks go below 300. Our static pugged a nin dps that did below 300 even in t11. What does this prove? Or what place could this possibly have in any discussion involving balance?

Good dps>bad dps. Kupo?

[SlyRoyale]

And this is true story. FC mate did a pug for T10.

BAD Bard (115 Shiva bow, Ironworks Chest, Ironworks Legs - yes seriously.) - 260 DPS
Normal Monk - 450 DPS

So you're citing a single parse of a BRD who doesn't know how to play their role properly while mentioning their hardly desirable gearset. Good to know.

A BRD with that gear can easily push around 420-440 DPS, or maybe around 380-400 depending on time spent singing Ballad/Paeon along with a possible KO. While the Diamond Bow, and Ironworks pants and body have atrocious secondary stats for BRD, any BRD worth their salt can easily do +140 DPS of the BRD your FC mate parsed. BRD DPS is never that bad unless the player is really bad. Please don't weaken your argument by blatantly grasping for straws.

[DoubleD]

Wow, I've never seen a melee go below 380 in FCoB so that's news to me. I was just tying to show how low the "Floor" for a Bard would be as opposed to other classes "Floor". I was thinking the "Floor" would around 360 for melee.

Plus it was an indirect shot at how the echo attack buff in SCoB is bad for the game as a whole since it has unleashed a hoard to FCoB that only beat T9 because of the attack buff from Echo and still don't know how to play their class.

[AkashiXI]

I could do more FCoB (without a static dying because the leaders decided to quit), but from my experience I'm usually topping the charts or hovering around 2nd to 4th place with a fair amount of parity (around 20-40 DPS). With this setup, I bet I can push around 460 or more. That's pretty decent for a BRD with that gear. Now that I'm making my own static with both healers being able to use ACT, I'll be sure to provide some numbers in the near future.

And to answer your second question: yes. While BRD DPS may be low, the fact that they can help boost the DPS of everyone else may making sure their resources don't run dry on them during crucial moments, along with boosting caster damage, BRDs are the batteries that help keep a static going. A battery that can dish out a fair amount of damage, even though it might not be much compared to other pure DPS jobs. The disparity is a non-issue.

You are not going to hit 460 with that gear, especially in turns like 12 where singing can become an absolute must in the Bennu phase (depending on how quickly you kill Bennus and how good your White Mage is at conserving mp). Even if you do push at 4 and your White Mage is near godlike (5.5k+ piety will really help), you still need to put Paeon on because a good Bard multi-doting the Bennus to begin with, and I guarantee you'll be TP starved at that point. So essentially, you're punishing yourself by putting out too much DPS and you have to eat the 30second (Battle Voice) penalty of -20% damage. Yep, that sounds so ideal, /rolleyes.

You could maybe reach 460 with your gear in T11 due to the adds, maybe T10 if you starve yourself a little and delay your GCDs. You have no skill speed so it's possible to get to a third invigorate without destroying your DPS too much.

Clearly it must or you wouldn't have a spot.

Because I lead my static, and I have been doing so for over a year now. I fully know how far back Bard has been set since 2.1, and I'm actually taking precautions to switch mains to benefit the static (which means no Bard).

it does. Without you, their dps would be downed by a lot if they wanted to save their TP. Now they have a BRD, and can focus more on damage than on TP, thus doing more overall. Should they run TP starved, their dps would drop from 550ish to 0 instantly. What's the best for the group ? your choice.

Your DPS doesn't drop from 550 to 0... that's a terrible misconception and you're extremely wrong. What happens when your WAR TP gets low? You stagger GCDs. What happens when you don't have a Bard and you're pushing phases? You stagger your DPS, lose about 10~15k collectively, and gain over 100k from pure DPS by switching out the Bard. It's that simple.

[Ooshima]

You are not going to hit 460 with that gear, especially in turns like 12 where singing can become an absolute must in the Bennu phase (depending on how quickly you kill Bennus and how good your White Mage is at conserving mp). Even if you do push at 4 and your White Mage is near godlike (5.5k+ piety will really help), you still need to put Paeon on because a good Bard multi-doting the Bennus to begin with, and I guarantee you'll be TP starved at that point. So essentially, you're punishing yourself by putting out too much DPS and you have to eat the 30second (Battle Voice) penalty of -20% damage. Yep, that sounds so ideal, /rolleyes.

Ideally there is no need for Paeons in T12. Assuming 4 bennus and zero or near zero skill speed gear, you should hover around slightly below 100TP to 140ish TP when Phoenix jumps, and Invigorate becomes available. After dealing with P3 there will be a short period of inactivity before Phoenix exits from her invulnerable status and that should tide you over until Invigorate is up again. P4 typically have 2 jump phases where you can choose to play Paeon/Ballad without suffering the 20% penalty if really required. But I generally Foe at start, Foe at P3 start, Ballad at P4's first jump if healers need it or keep regening MP until full and play Foe towards the end of P4's 2nd jump.

[Airashii]

Wow, after reading all this... I have to say this is what I hate about bard's 20% singing debuff. My biggest complaints with all the songs (except swiftsong because lawloutofcombat) Is the 2-3 GCDs I have to waste playing with the dang things. It takes 1 GCD just to start the three second cast. I lose .5 of a GCD right there. Plus I lose the time for the animation, which probably is roughly another .5 seconds to 1 second. Then there is manually turning that song off. I can't just do it whenever I like. I have to wait until my GCD is available again to turn it off. Which means I cannot be in animation lock; and I cannot be using another skill until I finally manage to turn it off. Which by the time it takes for me to get that thing off, I lose probably another .5 to 1 second. My biggest gripe is the cast time itself; and the fact I am forced to wait for the GCD to turn it off. If anything that I would ask for, is cut the cast time down on the songs and remove the GCD lock out on it.

If we want to be technical about what they could do for bards to create a "penalty" for singing that would be different but not hurt their DPS. Shouldn't we look at other solutions? We could simply keep the cast time (3 seconds), with a 3-5 minute CD. Uptime is 1 minute with no damage penalty. It would make it a limited resource as well, and it would help people manage resources as well.

But in any case, let's talk about damage. My group runs with DRG, NIN, BRD, BLM as DPS. I'm the bard. I am fed Goad by the Ninja since the only other person who would need the TP, would be the WAR; since the DRG can self manage his TP thankfully to fight breaks and improved Invigorate. I don't have to sing Paeon often. That much is for sure. Only the NIN would really need it on a time extensive fight. Thanks to the nearly infinite supply of TP, I push between 450-480 on a good day (With 10% Piercing buff obviously.) However, when I sing, I drop to about 380 to 410. It's a significant loss, but the benefits outweigh the cons in this case since everyone keeps their damage up. And it's only for a short time. On the other hand, sometimes MP is an issue, especially on progression. So I'm singing Ballad. And I am singing it a long time. It hurts the group hard DPS wise. But we're alive, that's what matters. The numbers are pretty huge in comparison to other classes for sure. But the fights dead, not much to complain against there.

I'd love to do more damage as bard. I really would. But at the same time, there is a lot of information to consider whether or not bard can be buffed. You can't remove the penalty to songs as they are now. Let's face it, bards would ballad/paeon all day and laugh as they frolic through flowers. There's no penalty, everyone benefits... But at the same time, no one has to manage anything. It makes it too dumbed down and easy. They would have to completely redo how songs behave to make managing your resources something you have to do. Whether it becomes a long CD or drains an incredible amount of MP with a high return to everyone (excluding MP to bard because, it would run way too long.) The biggest thing to look at in this case is resource management. People should be asking, "Will bards be as important to have since NIN has Goad and in 3.0, another class can give MP? Can we make do without a bard?" I personally fear my role won't be in such a high demand for good ones with other classes getting the same abilities. I'm not against the idea of other people having those abilities. But it will make bard less and less desirable as other roles that can do the same function while providing more to the group fill the place. It's hard to balance. And since we don't know how the MP regen skill works yet. It's nothing but speculation.

And as a side note for Foe Requiem.... I have to say, my biggest thing that I want to face palm over is the ideology behind this skill. I say that because, other classes such as NIN, DRG, MNK and WAR all self buff their own damage by 10%. Bard is the only one who can provide magical damage buffs. It's not part of our rotation, and we're penalized for using it by having to sacrifice a GCD to it occasionally. And when I say the term "penalized." I say it lightly. The benefit from using the song greatly outweighs the measily GCD I could've used for another shot. I personally would much rather see it incorporated into my Blood Letter shot as a debuff to keep up and that song be replaced with something else more support. I.E. No/Low MP cost HP party regen, think chocobo potency here guys.. Like 50-90 HP every tick.

[Altena]

I think a lot of you are also forgetting that BRD has potentially the highest burst DPS in the game... That alone is a huge advantage (in terms of DPS).

While it may not have as much sustained, they are certainly not weak.

BRD will always have a place in any content worth a damn. (Anything less then FCoB - which job you choose to play honestly doesn't matter).
Simply because most fights require either Paeon, Ballad, or simply have mechanics which are best handled by a BRD due to their mobility. In addition to this, as mentioned - they have pretty insane burst if played correctly.

They already have the best of quite a number of things. If a BRD were too comparable to melee DPS (or even BLM's DPS), then why would you bother bringing anything else? Especially in fights where mobility has a huge advantage, and BLM suffers quite heavily.

Finally, on top of all of this - they are an extremely simplistic job to play, with by far the lowest skill ceiling in comparison to any other job. (I would argue PLD is in a similar boat, however they have to tank things..)

As others have said - we have seen BRD in their "OP" state, and it really wasn't that pretty.

As I mentioned earlier, the way they could "buff" BRD is increase the skill ceiling - by giving bonus damage depending on the distance between you and the mob (like current BRD PvP).

If they were to increase their damage, they would honestly have to reduce something else - such as slower movement speed when their GCD is active to reduce their mobility..

[Ooshima]

(Anything less then FCoB - which job you choose to play honestly doesn't matter).

Matters actually. Most of the contents outside FCoB are dungeons and BLM reigns King.

I wouldn't play BRD outside FCoB most of the time. Not because I got bored of BRD, but I see no real benefit. Bring a BLM to dungeons/CT/ST/WoD and nuke the shit out of the trash, or bring a Tank to Hunts for easy seals. You get the idea.

[AkashiXI]

Ideally there is no need for Paeons in T12. Assuming 4 bennus and zero or near zero skill speed gear, you should hover around slightly below 100TP to 140ish TP when Phoenix jumps, and Invigorate becomes available. After dealing with P3 there will be a short period of inactivity before Phoenix exits from her invulnerable status and that should tide you over until Invigorate is up again. P4 typically have 2 jump phases where you can choose to play Paeon/Ballad without suffering the 20% penalty if really required. But I generally Foe at start, Foe at P3 start, Ballad at P4's first jump if healers need it or keep regening MP until full and play Foe towards the end of P4's 2nd jump.

Different party set-ups *shrugs*. I almost always Paeon 30 seconds just as P3 starts (while the Bennus are spawning) so I can throw in a couple of DoTs on the Bennus. With my current set-up, I still have my HA Legs... so the additional Skill Speed is enough for me to get a little starved towards the end of P3. P4 is fine though, I'll occasionally have to stagger my GCDs but it's better than just singing for myself. Regardless, you're still furthering my point that songs are near useless in terms of efficiency when you start to farm FcoB.

If they were to increase their damage, they would honestly have to reduce something else - such as slower movement speed when their GCD is active to reduce their mobility..

What exactly is the reasoning behind this? They already decreased our GCD's potency, and their indirect nerf with Blood for Blood/Internal Release was directly aimed at Bard's bursting ability. We've already received adjustments, and it made it so Bards are not scaling as they should have. There's absolutely no reason why there needs to be a Yin to this Yang, we simply need minor adjustments to how our gear, our stats (DEX doesn't scale properly either), and our abilities improve over the ilv difference.

Also Bard has good burst ability... but so does Ninja and Dragoon. Both in which have better sustainable damage overall, so there's no trade-off here. The only thing you can argue is that we have both utility and burst damage, which I can argue Ninja has both too.

[Ooshima]

Different party set-ups *shrugs*. I almost always Paeon 30 seconds just as P3 starts (while the Bennus are spawning) so I can throw in a couple of DoTs on the Bennus. With my current set-up, I still have my HA Legs... so the additional Skill Speed is enough for me to get a little starved towards the end of P3. P4 is fine though, I'll occasionally have to stagger my GCDs but it's better than just singing for myself. Regardless, you're still furthering my point that songs are near useless in terms of efficiency when you start to farm FcoB.

Yes, we already know that songs gets less important as raid groups get used to the raids and pushing more DPS as time passes. Some groups work towards no Paeon so that the BRD can even choose to play another job if he wants to. T13 have been proven to be clear-able without a BRD long ago, I'm sure 12 is the same as well. If you are as good as the dudes at Lucrezia you probably don't need any songs for the either of FCoB now.

BTW sometimes I do play Paeon for a while during P3 idle start when the bennus are spawning as well (if I don't get caught busy with mechanics when Phoneix are about to jump, it gives a little more time to anticipate the jump and play the Paeon as she jumps to maximize playtime during downtime). Just for a little since there is no penalty to it, and switch to Foe Req later.