Final coil in duty finder

[Ashkendor]

I couldn't believe that Shiva EX was kept out of DF at first, that easily could have been cleared.

Every duty is kept out of DF until a patch or two later. This is nothing new.

If something is put in the DF it gets nerfed to the point where it's doable with even the worst possible combination of jobs due to the random nature of the DF, this harms everyone who wants to try the content the way it was intended.

I see more harm in the potential for a duty to end up unclearable due to party composition.

[Krr]

Every duty is kept out of DF until a patch or two later. This is nothing new.

A short list of level 50 duties that were in DF at release:

Ultima Weapon HM, Extreme Ifrit/Garuda/Titan, Hard Ifrit/Garuda/Titan (in 2.0, when being a hard mode primal meant something, grumble,) The Chrysalis, Battle on the Big Bridge, Battle in the Big Keep, Ultros, The Wanderer's Palace (Hard), Amdapor Keep (Hard), Keeper of the Lake, Snowcloak, Sastasha (Hard), Qarn (Hard), Hullbreaker Isle, Tam-tara Deepcroft (Hard), Stone Vigil (Hard), The Lost City of Amdapor, Brayflox's Longstop (Hard), Halatali (Hard), Haukke Manor (Hard), Pharos Sirius, Copperbell Mines (Hard), Wanderer's Palace, Amdapor Keep, The Praetorium, Castrum Meriadnum.

The trend of Extreme-tier fights not being available in Duty Finder didn't start until Leviathan, and many people have remarked on the harm it causes on servers where filling a learning PF is not tenable. Coil was a sole exception, as it was designed from the get-go to be unpuggable.

Also, fights don't gain echo or nerfs because they are put into Duty Finder. They're put into Duty Finder because they're about to receive echo and nerfs, and many fights that were considered unpuggable before Echo were still fights you could solo queue in. It's basically an admittance by S-E that, after Leviathan, they couldn't trust themselves to design 'hard' fights capable of being pugged any more, even though every non-Ramuh EX Primal was widely considered very easy to learn and farm.

(Again, all problems that are solved by tiered difficulty.)

[Kazumac]

The trend of Extreme-tier fights not being available in Duty Finder didn't start until Leviathan, and many people have remarked on the harm it causes on servers where filling a learning PF is not tenable.

I would actually see this as an argument for a cross server PF capability rather than placing content in DF that could potentially cause more issues than it helps.

[Krr]

I would actually see this as an argument for a cross server PF capability rather than placing content in DF that could potentially cause more issues than it helps.

Yes, but that would take months to develop, and in the process 3-4 more patches of content will be made. That's assuming it's even on their dev cycle list to make right now. A stopgap is necessary, and DF is that stopgap.

The only harm caused by putting content in DF is demonstrating that it has badly-designed arbitrary DPS composition requirements. Content doesn't mystically get nerfed just because a bunch of people tried it in DF and wiped forever. If that were the case, Titan (Hard) would have been nerfed in some magical 2.05 patch that didn't happen.

[Kazumac]

Editing editing

Yes, but that would take months to develop, and in the process 3-4 more patches of content will be made. That's assuming it's even on their dev cycle list to make right now. A stopgap is necessary, and DF is that stopgap.

The only harm caused by putting content in DF is demonstrating that it has badly-designed arbitrary DPS composition requirements. Content doesn't mystically get nerfed just because a bunch of people tried it in DF and wiped forever. If that were the case, Titan (Hard) would have been nerfed in some magical 2.05 patch that didn't happen.

Honestly I get your point for those on low pop servers but just think that having DF put together a group with 3 Mdps and no brd for coil would lead to outcries of make this content DF-able. Or double WHM or double SCH /cringe.

The design of the game does make certain combinations of jobs much more effective than others. It is baked in the game so intrinsically at this point and would require a lot more time to strip out than adding a cross server PF capability.

I guess your point though is even if the combinations given by a DF group would mean failure even before you started, you'd still rather have it as an option. I could just see stuff like, ugh double WHM vote abandon. No brd vote abandon. Etc. so those waiting in queues for hours just to vote abandon or have people quit right when they zone in? Maybe it's worth it... I don't know. My opinion is it isn't but obviously it is only opinion. SE would have to deal with those outcries/complaints if they were to come from adding FCOB to DF.

[Krr]

I guess your point though is even if the combinations given by a DF group would mean failure even before you started, you'd still rather have it as an option.

My point is that jobs and encounters shouldn't be designed to arbitrarily require crappily designed jobs like Bard, make two Scholars incapable of interacting with each other, or enforce a division of n melee and n ranged DPS, or n players who can do an on-demand silence despite stun and silence being largely interchangable as 'interrupt' mechanics, or arbitrarily enforced healer/tank diversity.

I say this as someone who's DFed, PFed, and organized premade statics. They're not fun mechanics to organize around, they don't give jobs "identity" or "uniqueness", they just waste time in place of actually enjoyable, skill-based and job-agnostic mechanics.

They're also usually fights where the rest of the group doesn't really do anything fun or interesting. You don't interact with like 80% of T7's interesting mechanics unless you're the kiter, in which case you have to carry all those mechanics on your back. No one except the Bard did anything interesting for the first 3 pulls of T2 despite the entire trash gauntlet taking like 5 minutes and being at least half the encounter. And stuff like 'bosses who require so much DPS you're constantly out of TP so now you arbitrarily need a Bard to sing Paeon!' aren't interesting interactions between the player and the boss, they're dry mechanics where you have to bring n guy to use y skill at exactly 4:00 minutes or else the party arbitrarily loses.

(Like seriously, we have like 10 full class kits of unique abilities, many of which are utilarian in nature, and MP/TP song is somehow the only solution we get to this problem? God that's boring design.)

Basically what I'm saying here is I don't give a damn if bad mechanics like Renauds or High Voltage need to be nerfed for DF because they weren't interesting to work around in PF in the first place, unless your definition of 'interesting content' is screwing around with tedious party organization that usually boils down to 'Guess we don't have a bard, let's wait 30 minutes in PF!'

[Kazumac]

Lots of stuff that I don't disagree with...

So you want the fight changed such that they are DF-able from a job composition perspective... not a difficulty perspective. I would be happy if encounters were designed like that (though I believe with current class design it would be challenge, major changes would be needed). Hopefully they will take that into consideration for future content development.

But at the moment to do this with any speed and minimal dev resources it is the removal of mechanics which ultimately results in an easier fight. This kinda makes me /sigh but with my schedule I'm probably not pushing into FCOB until this happens anyway so it doesn't really affect me.

Other options might be to keep the fights as they are but allow people to switch classes while in the DF before engaging in the boss fight? Probably some room for abuse here but might increase the possibility that randomly put together groups could adjust if their compositions weren't quite conducive to the content.

[Sapphic]

No one except the Bard did anything interesting for the first 3 pulls of T2 despite the entire trash gauntlet taking like 5 minutes and being at least half the encounter.

I must have imagined running t2 as MNK and having to silence the ADS (same with t1) or when I ran as PLD having to silence, or using silence on SCH with Selene also. Good to know :P Theres very few fights in game which cant be done with 2xSCHs and thats mostly due to large party based damage, aka turn 13. Turn 12 is manageable with 2 SCHs, as the only real AE damage is rebirth which can be mitigated with Succor and Fey covenant. Turn 12 gives plenty of time to AE heal with 2xSCHs after nerve cloud.

Having the "optimal" set up does make it easier, but outside of needing a WHM and SCH for turn 13, everything else is doable without the perfect set up.

And tbhh, wouldn't surprise me if some managed to clear t13 with double SCH XD

[Elusana_Celah]

I would actually see this as an argument for a cross server PF capability rather than placing content in DF that could potentially cause more issues than it helps.

Or a check box that says "Noob" then it would pair you with other people who checked off noobs so it would hopefully have the effect of not pairing people who just want to practice with people who want to clear.

[Kazumac]

Or a check box that says "Noob" then it would pair you with other people who checked off noobs so it would hopefully have the effect of not pairing people who just want to practice with people who want to clear.

My issues are purely with the fact that many un-nerfed coil fights require relatively specific party combinations to have a good chance of success. The solution you propose does not handle that concern. My earlier posts state that and I recognoze that you may not have connected those with me when you offered this solution.