Final coil in duty finder

[Kazumac]

If something is put in the DF it gets nerfed to the point where it's doable with even the worst possible combination of jobs due to the random nature of the DF, this harms everyone who wants to try the content the way it was intended.

This. Just look at the mockery of T7 that it was turned into post DF implementation.

And there is harm to puting something in DF that may result in group compositions that cannot be reasonably capable of completing the duty.

[MageBlack]

I'm glad it will be in DF from the get go in Heavensward. I really want to actually be able to get in to Alexander and experience the story, then later go back for he challenge.

[Ashkendor]

I couldn't believe that Shiva EX was kept out of DF at first, that easily could have been cleared.

Every duty is kept out of DF until a patch or two later. This is nothing new.

If something is put in the DF it gets nerfed to the point where it's doable with even the worst possible combination of jobs due to the random nature of the DF, this harms everyone who wants to try the content the way it was intended.

I see more harm in the potential for a duty to end up unclearable due to party composition.

[Krr]

Every duty is kept out of DF until a patch or two later. This is nothing new.

A short list of level 50 duties that were in DF at release:

Ultima Weapon HM, Extreme Ifrit/Garuda/Titan, Hard Ifrit/Garuda/Titan (in 2.0, when being a hard mode primal meant something, grumble,) The Chrysalis, Battle on the Big Bridge, Battle in the Big Keep, Ultros, The Wanderer's Palace (Hard), Amdapor Keep (Hard), Keeper of the Lake, Snowcloak, Sastasha (Hard), Qarn (Hard), Hullbreaker Isle, Tam-tara Deepcroft (Hard), Stone Vigil (Hard), The Lost City of Amdapor, Brayflox's Longstop (Hard), Halatali (Hard), Haukke Manor (Hard), Pharos Sirius, Copperbell Mines (Hard), Wanderer's Palace, Amdapor Keep, The Praetorium, Castrum Meriadnum.

The trend of Extreme-tier fights not being available in Duty Finder didn't start until Leviathan, and many people have remarked on the harm it causes on servers where filling a learning PF is not tenable. Coil was a sole exception, as it was designed from the get-go to be unpuggable.

Also, fights don't gain echo or nerfs because they are put into Duty Finder. They're put into Duty Finder because they're about to receive echo and nerfs, and many fights that were considered unpuggable before Echo were still fights you could solo queue in. It's basically an admittance by S-E that, after Leviathan, they couldn't trust themselves to design 'hard' fights capable of being pugged any more, even though every non-Ramuh EX Primal was widely considered very easy to learn and farm.

(Again, all problems that are solved by tiered difficulty.)

[Elusana_Celah]

You ever duty finder T9? Don't. I've tried it about 17 times and I'm done. People use it as a chance to go in 'blind' and are unable to learn fast enough so the party disbands in minutes or you make it to phase 4 on the first try, wipe and someone ragequits out. Frankly I don't know who's worse, the unwarranted ragequits (keyword is unwarranted, I'm not suggesting people waste their time in an obvious fail group), or the people who go into it blind... it's just way too hard and you are wasting everyone's time unless you are SURE you can learn fast...

Fairly sure final coils will be much much worse than what I just described. It might work for the JA gamers but NA is not good at working together in duty finder situations.

[Kazumac]

The trend of Extreme-tier fights not being available in Duty Finder didn't start until Leviathan, and many people have remarked on the harm it causes on servers where filling a learning PF is not tenable.

I would actually see this as an argument for a cross server PF capability rather than placing content in DF that could potentially cause more issues than it helps.

[Krr]

I would actually see this as an argument for a cross server PF capability rather than placing content in DF that could potentially cause more issues than it helps.

Yes, but that would take months to develop, and in the process 3-4 more patches of content will be made. That's assuming it's even on their dev cycle list to make right now. A stopgap is necessary, and DF is that stopgap.

The only harm caused by putting content in DF is demonstrating that it has badly-designed arbitrary DPS composition requirements. Content doesn't mystically get nerfed just because a bunch of people tried it in DF and wiped forever. If that were the case, Titan (Hard) would have been nerfed in some magical 2.05 patch that didn't happen.

[Elusana_Celah]

I would actually see this as an argument for a cross server PF capability rather than placing content in DF that could potentially cause more issues than it helps.

Or a check box that says "Noob" then it would pair you with other people who checked off noobs so it would hopefully have the effect of not pairing people who just want to practice with people who want to clear.

[Kazumac]

Editing editing

Yes, but that would take months to develop, and in the process 3-4 more patches of content will be made. That's assuming it's even on their dev cycle list to make right now. A stopgap is necessary, and DF is that stopgap.

The only harm caused by putting content in DF is demonstrating that it has badly-designed arbitrary DPS composition requirements. Content doesn't mystically get nerfed just because a bunch of people tried it in DF and wiped forever. If that were the case, Titan (Hard) would have been nerfed in some magical 2.05 patch that didn't happen.

Honestly I get your point for those on low pop servers but just think that having DF put together a group with 3 Mdps and no brd for coil would lead to outcries of make this content DF-able. Or double WHM or double SCH /cringe.

The design of the game does make certain combinations of jobs much more effective than others. It is baked in the game so intrinsically at this point and would require a lot more time to strip out than adding a cross server PF capability.

I guess your point though is even if the combinations given by a DF group would mean failure even before you started, you'd still rather have it as an option. I could just see stuff like, ugh double WHM vote abandon. No brd vote abandon. Etc. so those waiting in queues for hours just to vote abandon or have people quit right when they zone in? Maybe it's worth it... I don't know. My opinion is it isn't but obviously it is only opinion. SE would have to deal with those outcries/complaints if they were to come from adding FCOB to DF.

[Kazumac]

Or a check box that says "Noob" then it would pair you with other people who checked off noobs so it would hopefully have the effect of not pairing people who just want to practice with people who want to clear.

My issues are purely with the fact that many un-nerfed coil fights require relatively specific party combinations to have a good chance of success. The solution you propose does not handle that concern. My earlier posts state that and I recognoze that you may not have connected those with me when you offered this solution.