In-Game Parser.

[Nominous]

this is a game, the devs expect it to be played a certain way.
comparing this to driving a car is not a good argument. it is not legal to drive a car that has no spedometer in it for one thing. try again with something that might actually convince the devs of your argument because I assure you your comparison to a car most definitely will not.

The example holds weight simply because I'm not debating legality, I'm talking about being informed, or lack of information. It's pretty much wording at that point. I could literally just say, "You could do x activity without x meter and you could probably judge the information pretty well. However without x meter you might possibly mess up in x way." It's not exclusive to a speedometer, or parsing, but it means the same thing, regardless of legality. You can do well, but if you don't have a precise readout on what you're doing, you're blindly hoping that you're doing the right thing.

This is important in the end-game environment because there ARE strict checks, and the difference between pushing a phase could just be switching up your rotation, or using a poison pot, or replacing a member. Knowing the actual variable which changed to bring about success is entirely ambiguous without a parser, though. You could push a phase, but not know why. You could be doing what you consider to be your 'best' rotation, but not meet the enrage timer. Could have been another player doing more DPS that pushed your phase. Could have been your poison pot. Could have been a weird amount of crits. If you're not meeting enrage timers, maybe it wasn't you doing poorly. Maybe another member was. Accountability is important, if you intend on being a part of end-game fights. Empathy is too, because your enjoyment is important, but when you're with 7 other people, there's is no less important than yours. Don't waste time. Don't stay uninformed because, "It's worked for me in the past." There's no good reason to be uninformed.

All of this still means the same thing for the pro-parse argument- Having more information does NOT hurt you. It's the information in the wrong hands, that does.

None of this changes the argument against having a parser in-game. The only adverse, or negative thing that it would bring in implementation, is a more widely available tool that people already use. There's no argument against keeping parsers out of game, other than, "I don't want the possibility of criticism". They can't protect people from something as vague as that, by with-holding something like a parser.

[Wildsprite]

There are plenty who do want to and want tools to help them. The certain special snowflakes who don't want to improve (which is their problem, not ours) shouldn't deny us these tools so that they can force their mediocrity upon us while they get carried from willingly not pulling their weight.

while I agree with you, that argument is the one that was used to convince them for the striking dummy personal.
you will need better for the official parser argument. because it is not the players who are denying you it is the devs.
you will need to convince them that the good does infact outweigh the bad.

All of this still means the same thing for the pro-parse argument- Having more information does NOT hurt you. It's the information in the wrong hands, that does.

None of this changes the argument against having a parser in-game. The only adverse, or negative thing that it would bring in implementation, is a more widely available tool that people already use. There's no argument against keeping parsers out of game, other than, "I don't want the possibility of criticism". They can't protect people from something as vague as that, by with-holding something like a parser.

despite your argument which I agree with they will still argue that allowing them or making an official one makes it look like they are promoting the bad bahavior of impatient people who shouldnt have these parsers. you know the ones that will use the information to tell people they suck rather than try to give them tips to improve? yeah that type. those are the arguments against the parsers.

I would love to see tools like these in the hands of helpful friendly people. but the impatient jerks that only care about themselves I hate the idea of seeing these kind of tools in their hands

[Nominous]

despite your argument which I agree with they will still argue that allowing them or making an official one makes it look like they are promoting the bad bahavior of impatient people who shouldnt have these parsers. you know the ones that will use the information to tell people they suck rather than try to give them tips to improve? yeah that type. those are the arguments against the parsers.

That's an argument against players who are jerks. This is going to sound terribly American, but this is like saying "Guns kill people", or at least it's a similar argument. Parsers aren't hurting players, the only purpose they serve is as a tool for spitting out information. How that information is used is up to the user. The user's words, criticism, or poor use of that information is what people don't like. I think a lot of people refuse to understand that, and instead, are more content with arguing that the root of the problem is the parser. It's not.

Let me tell you somethin' about some of those crazy people you see on the news. If they intended on murdering someone, and didn't have a gun, they'd probably have done it witha knife. If they don't have a knife, they'll use a rock, if they can't use a rock, they'll use their hands. They're just crazy. People who are jerks are gonna be jerks. No parser? They'll just find more inventive ways to make fun of you, it's not a new concept. People who wanna start stuff will do it in any way they can.

[Wildsprite]

That's an argument against players who are jerks. This is going to sound terribly American, but this is like saying "Guns kill people", or at least it's a similar argument. Parsers aren't hurting players, the only purpose they serve is as a tool for spitting out information. How that information is used is up to the user. The user's words, criticism, or poor use of that information is what people don't like. I think a lot of people refuse to understand that, and instead, are more content with arguing that the root of the problem is the parser. It's not.

oh I agree with you, I do. the logic behind not having an official one is flawed but like it or not it's their game and their rules so we have to convince them.

[Slappah]

oh I agree with you, I do. the logic behind not having an official one is flawed but like it or not it's their game and their rules so we have to convince them.

How's a thread with around 10 thousand views, and over 200 replies, with majority of everyone here agreeing that parsers should be in game for convincing?

[Wildsprite]

How's a thread with around 10 thousand views, and over 200 replies, with majority of everyone here agreeing that parsers should be in game for convincing?

that wont convince them that the good will outweigh the bad, that is what they need to be convinced of.

they already know that quite a lot of people want an official parser. they have gone as far as to say they know people are using them but not to mention that they are using them within the game or in the forums. my guess is their "don't mention the use of them" is in hopes that it will stifle some of the bad behavior

[Nominous]

that wont convince them that the good will outweigh the bad, that is what they need to be convinced of. they already know that quite a lot of people want an official parser.

They already know the good outweighs the bad. If they're worth their salt as developers, they already know how useful that information can be. They have a battle log, so that's (some) proof of that. They (inevitably) see when the world first clear videos blatantly showcase a HUGE parser on the screen.

Having a parser helped people realize that MNK was a high outlier of DPS for some time. It helped people realize that the gap between DRG damage floors and ceilings were insanely large, and that there were buffs that needed to bring them more inline with MNK and NIN. When the community knows more about the game, it helps them make more informed assessments about balance. This goes right back to the developers, and in turn makes the game even better when everyone's happy that their Job performs on viable, or comparable levels to others. You can't just assume that balance is okay. You can't assume that your party is doing fine with damage, and then realize at 13 minutes, 1 minute before enrage, that you could have all been using poison pots and won instead of losing. You can strive, and work at becoming better with a parser. You can only hope that you're doing better without one.

There's so much good that parsers bring to the game, and there's only one negative side effect, that is already happening, and happens on much worse levels. Hunts are toxic as all hell, literally will get you blacklisted, and brings out the WORST in people. Hey, that content is fine, though. PF requirements might as well be a pre-party screening for DPS potential. It systematically allows players to alienate others by perceived damage output (with iLvl requirements), or flat out Job discrimination. The argument they use against parsers in game hardly makes sense, when you consider things like this.

[Lycelle]

DPS checks are like tug of war.

8 People against 1 big man. If all 8 people are pulling, you can pull that big man into the mud. However that big man is strong and can pull all of you, however if everyone pulls their own weight you can resist the pull and manage to pull back twice as hard. That's what a DPS check is, it's a tug of war between DPS and the boss and if you can't do that as a group, then you're going to fail. A parser is nothing more than a tool to spot a weak chain. You cannot blame a parser for how it is used, simply because it is a in itself a glorified calculator. You can however blame the approach made towards the effort to help someone improve their DPS. It's the attitude that matters when you become the bearer of bad news.

Raid Leader Don: Hey. Great job tonight guys, we're gonna however have to try harder. We keep failing the DPS check. Why is that? Let's take a look at the data here and see what we can find.

The raid leader goes though the parsing information.

Raid Leader Don: Amy. Good job on Monk. You were top DPS! Pulling 430
Amy:
Raider Leader Don: Anthony, excellent job on Summoner. Pulling in at 398
Anthony: Hell yeah!
Raid Leader Don: Jackson. You were a bit low tonight, but you still did good as Bard tonight, that song really helped us though,336. Could do for improvement but still good job.
Jackson: Alright. I'll have to work on my rotation and dodging mechanics. I did die so that's my fault, but I can fix it.
Raid Leader Don: Maggie...honey. You were the lowest DPS tonight. What do you think you're doing wrong in your rotation? Your Dragoon did so well last raid, but right now your only clocking in at 297.
Maggie: I'm not sure. I think when Blood for Blood is up and I died, I lost DPS that much is for sure. But I think my rotational is off during some of the mechanics so I lost DPS as well. Sorry I'll work with Jackson next week and we can practice. That sound cool Jackson?
Jackson: Sure. Sounds good to me.
Raid Leader Don: Awesome! Good job tonight guys, let's shoot for improvement next week. Try to cap your Tomes and get a piece in if you can, that'll help too.

This is the kind of motivation a parser can bring if used correctly. There are a number of reasons "why" DPS numbers CAN be low and hold a group back, but that is where a parser is used. It is used to figure out what is going wrong, whether it be mechanics, rotation issues or gear not being up to par in terms of BiS. All it does is take what is already there in the Battle Log and cuts out all the fluff and gives the raw numbers. So if you want to really be technical, the game "has" a built in parser called your Battle Log. You can sift through it, pull out all the numbers and crunch them. Sure it will take you awhile, but it's the same thing as using a parser, except the Battle Log tells you everything that happens, and a parser just simplifies it for you to read. Nothing more nothing less.

[Gardes]

Long post

Parser isn't just for dps. It can also be used to analyze boss moves, tanks and healers too. I think I made a post listing various example somewhere in this forum. Let me check...

Here:

You can check almost anything. Our OT was having trouble taking the adds in phase 3 of t9 and we weren't sure why. He just keeps failing at it and someone else looked around in the parser and turns out he's missing quite a bit. We just assumed that everyone would already know what their accuracy needed to be at but apparently he didn't. Oh hey, guess how we know our acc limits? Some early birds tested them for us! We're now farming t9 with the same method and having no problems with adds.

Another example, turn 9's phase 4 where the boss starts using a multi-hit move that can do a total damage of more than the tank's hp. As the tank I died to it and people start wondering if my mitigation was late or in the wrong order and whether I should switch them around because the attack alternates in damage strength against me. I was sure that I did it perfectly and I didn't get myself killed. Someone else looked around in the parser again and I was right because the damage I'm taking from claws was minimal from all of them and it couldn't have killed me. After an even closer look, it was found out that I got killed by someone's thunder debuff and I didn't need to change my play style.

Another example! Back in turn 8 before echo, we were reforming the group and got a new healer who has never done the turn. I personally recruited him because I used to do the 1st binding coil of bahamut as a static with him and thought he was good. We were having trouble keeping the tank alive (wasn't me at the time) and people started looking at this new whm and he was getting exasperated because he was trying to do his best and our sch started getting sarcastic with him. So again, someone else looked at the numbers and he started noticing that the sch's healing numbers are suspiciously low considering he is much better geared than whm (half when he has i110 book and the whm has i90 zenith). We didn't tell this to any of the healers because we weren't sure if this is normal. Shortly after the sch left due to irl schedules (for real) and we tried another sch and we suddenly don't have anymore problems and we looked at the numbers again. The new sch is also better geared and more experienced at turn 8 and his healing numbers are higher by a little bit than the whm so we now know it was the previous sch slacking and blaming the other healer. But I suppose that's water under the bridge but at least we found out why.

[Faelandaea]

The devs don't have to spend any time on making an in-house parser. They're already making the addon API public in Heavensward, so as long as players have access to the combat log then you'll start seeing player made parsers being made and thrown up.

So . . . Wait . . . If that's been confirmed then what's the point of this thread? Debate or not the question was if we'll have an in game solution for parsing. It seems there's the answer right there.