Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[scarebearz]

Apocastatis is an extremely good spell for progression, clever use of Manaward and/or Manawall gives Black Mages a distinct advantage on damage heavy phases and Flare as been useful on quite a few occasions. All of these
tools are not available to Summoner whatsoever. Having Summoner slightly better in single target than Black Mages (around 3-5% higher) while keeping Black Mages the respective king of Burst/AoE would be a fair tradeoff and
would by no means invalidate the use of Black Mages. That argument, which has been brought in this very thread before is nothing short of being overly dramatic.

When SMN's did more dps than BLM in SCoB, BLM was a poor choice for any serious raid group and many BLM had to play SMN. Was this needed to kill T9? no, but it helped a lot of raid teams get the kill quicker. I don't think it's being overly dramatic, I think SMN and BLM should be on equal footing potential DPS-wise for FCoB. BLM has some good utility, but SMN has s bit better utility.

Nothing personal but I have difficulty being told by a class which ressources are theoretically infinite what the scale of the buff should be.

The "infinate resourses" thing has been brought up over and over again, does this make BLM do excessive DPS? no, in order to keep going we sacrifice DPS, just like SMN has to do in longer fights. It's the potential DPS of the class that matters, not the different class mechanics.

Funny thing is, melee are that much better dps-wise that we casters are mostly fighting over 1 raid spot, for BCoB I remember 2 casters being much more common.

[ViviAnimus]

Summoner does not have better utility, simply because of the fact that it has no unique utility, nothing a Summoner brings to the table that a SCH can't do. There is not one instance where a Summoner must use the utility to save the day except when a SCH is dead or not executing what he's supposed to be doing. The idea that Summoner has better utility is just ridiculous.

[CGMidlander]

Summoner does not have better utility, simply because of the fact that it has no unique utility, nothing a Summoner brings to the table that a SCH can't do. There is not one instance where a Summoner must use the utility to save the day except when a SCH is dead or not executing what he's supposed to be doing. The idea that Summoner has better utility is just ridiculous.

An extra swiftcast raise and traited virus can come in handy sometimes.

[ViviAnimus]

As said before, the raise is very exceptional to use as a SMN and it isn't unique, at all. Traited virus is pretty useless as well. You only truly use it on T13 and the SCH does it. BLM apoc, manaward and manawall which are better than all the things SMN has because they are unique and actually useful because of it.

[mvenom]

If only they didnt add Antibody back on first coil Virus has 90s cd, 60s antibody after 10s duration so if there is ever moment where u need another virus after 70s, it may come in handy. As said many times, combat ress sounds nice on paper, but totally eats your dps / mp. It takes 26% of your mp.

Buut anyway, some adjustments should be coming if its to trust that interview so I'd just wait and see.

I'm sure the job balance will be greatly adjusted when Heavensward is released, but do you have any jobs that you plan to adjust during the patch 2.5 series?
Y: In particular, I think we need to consider Summoner, but we're still working on the adjustments. Originally, we were planning to add new actions to Summoner with Heavensward to adjust MP consumption. However, since 3.0 is still a ways off, we're thinking about other careful adjustments. As we release each piece of content we see which jobs are too strong or not strong enough. We're also focusing on carefully adjusting things for 3.0, so we'd like to make adjustments as soon as possible, but please wait for a bit longer.

http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/124766-Yoshida-Press-Interview-Translations-Patch-2.5?p=6333229&viewfull=1#post6333229

[Dyvid]

As said before, the raise is very exceptional to use as a SMN and it isn't unique, at all. Traited virus is pretty useless as well. You only truly use it on T13 and the SCH does it. BLM apoc, manaward and manawall which are better than all the things SMN has because they are unique and actually useful because of it.

Remember when the purpose of have a DPS in the group was for them to, i don't know, DPS? Out of the three abilities you list, only one is actually good for the group while the others help the BLM survive. SMN has 3 abilities that actually help the group, Virus, Eye for Eye, and Raise. Sorry, Shadow Flare adds slow so that's 4. Can SCH do these two? Sure if you have one in the group. But SCH can also gives a 20% Magic Defense Buff for 20s so.... yea.

If you want to win the argument that BLM > SMN then just stick to DPS because all jobs have a little something extra they can bring to the table. WAR bring 10% slash resist debuff.

[scarebearz]

As said before, the raise is very exceptional to use as a SMN and it isn't unique, at all. Traited virus is pretty useless as well. You only truly use it on T13 and the SCH does it. BLM apoc, manaward and manawall which are better than all the things SMN has because they are unique and actually useful because of it.

As someone else said, Manaward and Manawall are not exactly "party utility", they mostly just let the BLM survive/eat certain attacks to allow them to move less. (i.e. allows the BLM to keep up their DPS)

Apoc does have party utility, but it's not used/needed very frequently, I'd much rather have super virus or an in combat raise!

Why does a skill need to be "Unique" to 1 class to make it very useful?

[Dwill]

When SMN's did more dps than BLM in SCoB, BLM was a poor choice for any serious raid group and many BLM had to play SMN. Was this needed to kill T9? no, but it helped a lot of raid teams get the kill quicker. I don't think it's being overly dramatic, I think SMN and BLM should be on equal footing potential DPS-wise for FCoB. BLM has some good utility, but SMN has s bit better utility.

You can't be the king of AoE and nigh on-demand burst then ask for the same equal sustain single target than someone who can't AoE has well and as a bigger ramp up time to achieve similar damage. Summoner being slightly ahead (by 3-5%) is a fair trade. And we'll agree to disagree on utility.

The "infinate resourses" thing has been brought up over and over again, does this make BLM do excessive DPS? no, in order to keep going we sacrifice DPS, just like SMN has to do in longer fights. It's the potential DPS of the class that matters, not the different class mechanics.

Funny thing is, melee are that much better dps-wise that we casters are mostly fighting over 1 raid spot, for BCoB I remember 2 casters being much more common.

Melee issue aside (which I agree with you), your resources doesn't make you do excessive damage but it also means you can keep doing the same damage indefinitely whether it's 2 minutes in the encounter or 10 minutes. For summoners, the longer a fight goes, the more you have to throttle which means you have to kill your damage ( stop Ruin II weaving and start using Energy Drain over Fester) to be able to keep on and even then, there is such a point where you'll go so low on MP that the damage output will be much worse than other jobs. There is a reason people aren't particularly fond of Summoners on T13.

So I stand by my statement, Black Mages have no say nor any standing ground on the MP management issues versus Summoners.

As someone else said, Manaward and Manawall are not exactly "party utility", they mostly just let the BLM survive/eat certain attacks to allow them to move less. (i.e. allows the BLM to keep up their DPS)

Apoc does have party utility, but it's not used/needed very frequently, I'd much rather have super virus or an in combat raise!

Why does a skill need to be "Unique" to 1 class to make it very useful?

As it has been stated multiple times already, having an instant raise for Summoners isn't that much for a utility considering that healers will always have priority over Summoners to use it. If you reach the summoner's raise, it's more often than not a wipe. And for Supervirus' case, it's mainly used for Nerve Gas and Giga Flare and it is handle by the Scholar.

I would take Black Mage's survivability tools over "utility" that his better handle by other jobs to begin with.

[Akiza]

Summoner's utility is battle rez, eye for an eye and virus but that doesn't justify them having the lowest DPS because Scholar and White Mage have priority when it comes to using those abilities if a Summoner has to rez in a FCOB progression party it's a wipe.
SE is balancing the Summoner against other DPS which is a mistake since Summoner is DoT it has to be balanced against the content or it will be useless. There is a reason modern MMORPGS don't have a DoT DPS it's the same reason why they no longer make controllers because MMORPGS have a faster pace and content is designed differently so DoT abilities are spread across Direct Damage Dealers just like Crowd Control is. In order to make the Summoner viable SE would have to dumb down content or make the Summoner 3-5 % stronger than other DPS.

[ViviAnimus]

As someone else said, Manaward and Manawall are not exactly "party utility", they mostly just let the BLM survive/eat certain attacks to allow them to move less. (i.e. allows the BLM to keep up their DPS)

Apoc does have party utility, but it's not used/needed very frequently, I'd much rather have super virus or an in combat raise!

Why does a skill need to be "Unique" to 1 class to make it very useful?

If as a class you never need to use your utility because another class will do it for you, then the utility you possess becomes a rarity and in most cases useless. It's that simple. Manaward and Manawall are both excellent tools to reduce damage completely and help out healers.
I use manaward during Charges in T10, Nerve Cloud in 11, Switching of flames in T13, Giga or Mega on T13. It's also a very handy tool to reduce damage when you have raise weakness. Manawall is fantastic during earth shakers, can save you when you pull agro. These are in some sense party utility because the relieve stress from the healers. And why does utility have to be dedicated to the party?

Super virus is not needed frequently and so is combat Raise. You only use super virus when the SCH is dead, otherwise you just don't and virus like a death sentence from the Storm in T13 or something. A Black Mage can do this as well. Summoner utility literally is Raise which is as exceptional as enhanced virus. Better utility, don't make me laugh. Utility that is extremely rare in its usage is not good utility.

Dyid, what are you even saying? BLM have a virus which is equally as useful and let's face it, so is Eye for en Eye. Battle raise, already discusses about how useless it is and BLM can also slow targets with blizzard I and Lethargy.