Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[Sanguisio]

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Give up arguing with the likes of Vivi, Dwill etc. They will never see the whole picture.

Hence why I am done replying in this thread, would have more luck getting blood from a stone

[Dwill]

Snip

Nothing personal but most of that post is total bs.We do not have better utility, you telling us to get over it doesn't give your argument any credit. You know full well that Scholar will take care of any utility (Supervirus/ In-combat raise) that Summoner brings. The fact that you brought up Eye for an Eye is pathetic at best. Black Mage can easily bring it as well via their cross-class skills (as well as normal virus) yet you conviniently forgot to mention that. You also have Apocastatis which has its uses.

Neither do we have better mobility. Moving for us means Ruin II casting which in return means we take an even bigger hit in our MP which means we go oom even faster. Heck, even if it wouldn't be an MP sink, it wouldn't be better because you know full well that Black Mages mobility isn't that bad considering you can prevent moving for a certain period of time via Manaward/Manawall or can use proc during movement.

The imbalance of SCoB wasn't that drastic (Your making it sound like it was the Sunwell era all over again which is laughable). Black Mages had cleared T9 well before they received their buffs and said buffs you received in single target is pretty close to the difference in single target that Black Mage and summoners have right now, nevermind the fact that Black Mages scale much better than Summoner as well so the discrepancy will just get bigger as the patch progresses.

Tell me, do you really believe that having access to an instant raise we rarely ever use and Supervirus should give the right for Black Mages to have :

Better survavibility
Much better AoE damage
Superior Single Target damage
Infinite Ressources
Decent utility (No matter how you want to deny you don't have any)

over Summoners ?

Honestly, you mentioned you don't want to see an imbalance but everything in your post shows a total disconnect to the Summoner class and that the real balance you really care about is for Black Mages to be the best caster in every scenario.

[Xisin]

I actually did mention the eye for an eye and blm circumstances, skim reading is bad. smn get 33% more uptime on e4e, it's quite nice.


smn mobility doesn't infer using ruin 2, losing 300 damagish isnt that big of a deal on a movement its far far less of a deal than losing 1100 damage

I'll make a list to make things a bit clearer:

SMN utility:

* unique dps Resurrect (I can argue my apoc doesn't matter anymore too, cause well I don't have to use it in my static... at all, but shit happens so I do.)

*70-80% dps uptime on cc lock (SMN UNIQUE utility btw) this includes, blue orbs, titan goals, twintania blues, ramuh tethers + stun, leviathan dives, turn 8 missles, turn 7 shreik... you get it the list goes on and on and on. I guess you can say schs are capable of this as well.. but yea, not quite the same thing as you are different archetypes , this is pretty much our manaward/wall usage... almost... different but equal... well except this doesnt actually have a cooldown and is just the job being the job

* higher mobility, summoners have at worst 70-80% uptime on move and at best 100% I don't see how this is a arguable, it isnt based on rng either... its fairly free range try doing savage 8 for example and hitting snowflakes tower... if I'm bound as blm I sometimes lose my umbral/astral even @.@

* smn eye for an eye is better @ 33% more uptime

* smn virus is better

* pet helps with splitting damage from hits like twintana fireball darnus beam etc

BLM has:

lesser e4e
lesser virus
apoc
manawall/ward
proc movement
aetherial manipulation but ya you can just walk
both jobs have sprint?

the damage difference is not 12% without procs, that was proven wrong

[Minorinz]

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BLM has higher single target and AOE ATM in FCoB, like that alone is too much. Could you please link me a single parse where a SMN could top a BLM on any fight in FCoB? It's just too obvious like lol
EDIT: I forgot to mention that mana issues alone won't solve the problem as it should be. Unless utility is OP that the dps difference will make sense, like the case with bards.

[ViviAnimus]

Give up arguing with the likes of Vivi, Dwill etc. They will never see the whole picture.

Hence why I am done replying in this thread, would have more luck getting blood from a stone

What are you even talking about? I have admitted on certain points that Xisin is absolutely correct. Why can't you people ever comment on someone's argument instead of someone? The sign of a perverted mindset, I might add. I have given good arguments for a Summoner buff.
The argument that still stands is that Summoner is outshined in the damage department by quite a large margin. I don't believe it is 12% with procs, but I do believe it is around 10% with procs.


You How can you argue against a small damage buff when BLM has better ST, AoE and burst. How can you even claim that Summoner would be fine?
And always this utility crap. No one brings a Summoner because of their raise, or because of enhanced virus. No one gives a shit because almost no Summoner has to do it anyway.

I think it should give Xisin some room to think that even though Summoner has all this uptime, it still gets outdamaged. Your argument about uptime is useless as long as the damage is still lower on pretty much every single front or every single fight. The perfect example on endgame is that SMN during earth shaker and megaflare and all the other stuff that makes you move or unable to attack should give Summoner a distinct advantage. But tell me a Summoner that has ended T13 with 540 DPS, you'll find no Summoner that does that. So yeah, uptime, great argument.
Are you seriously suggesting that in T5 the utility is that you could soak damage with your pet? Thanks a lot for that utility, SE! Never mind that you get shat on in Shiva and shat on in T10 and shat on in other turns with your pet. Never mind that.

[Xisin]

The argument vivi, is that with such thing available to smn it is incredibly easy to break them. DoT classes are traditionally designed as multi taskers to begin with, you are supposed to be multi-tasking, its what dots do really well. And as a previous poster has brought up, frankly;y summoner doesn't really multi task to the point that they can, you kinda just fill the holes in with ruin (some is ok, but maybe down to the core design it needs something else here?) The biggest thing I want fixed on summoner before potency is upped is itemization and then mp. Potency shouldn't be bothered with atm. After those changes happen then, let's take a second look. Like I've said multiple times though useless passives are no fun and you should be at least granted an ability there.

I actually did some napkin math and found that summoners get 2 more eye for an eye activations over the course of 13:30 (average lets say t13) that's at minimum 40 more seconds of -10% overall reduction, that very well could reach over a minute too. That is at least 2 flattens, some flare stars a megaflare and perhaps even a gigaflare, and ahk morn for sure over the course of the fight.

And yes I seriously suggested that, it's survivability utility (so much so that i've seen ragers in t5 pugs over it rofl), and yes I know the pet is a double edged sword at times, but it's more often a boon than a bane.

BTW I'm by no means offended by these guys, this kind of stuff is fun for me. Not that I'm arguing for the sake of it either, I'm fairly passionate about my blm.

[ViviAnimus]

Yes, but that does not mean it can't have a fix. My suggestion is to make Fester more powerful to give better sustain and not affect the uptime. That is all that I am suggesting buff wise and the management of MP. That's not game breaking, that's common sense. But yes, I do agree with you on those front.

1. Stat optimization
2. MP management
3. Fester buff

The pet is not more often a boon than a bane. It's just there as a DPS and even that it sometimes doesn't do well (the AI can be horrible). The one example you gave about soaking up damage it easily negated by the fact that the pet can die very easily in certain fights, when you die, your pet dies and you have to resummon and when you disconnect it's the same thing. Yes, it can be your own fault, but the pet isn't amazing, at all.

[Xisin]

as a summoner myself at times we can both agree that garuda/ifrit is dumb and could use some QoL changes.

[Dwill]

lol xD

Well thought out counter argument.

Give up arguing with the likes of Vivi, Dwill etc. They will never see the whole picture.

Hence why I am done replying in this thread, would have more luck getting blood from a stone

And yet you do ? I highly doubt it. This seems more of a case of "They disagree with me so they don't get it" than anything else. If it isn't, then do feel free to use your superior insight to share the developer's picture of their ranged caster classes.

I actually did mention the eye for an eye and blm circumstances, skim reading is bad.

If it was mentioned, I missed it so apologies.

smn mobility doesn't infer using ruin 2, losing 300 damagish isnt that big of a deal on a movement its far far less of a deal than losing 1100 damage.

If you're not infering on Ruin II then what ? There isn't much we can do when moving if it's not time for a Fester (Meaning all 3 DoTs absolutely need to be up when we move else, Fester is a no go.) or clipping Bio which is a useless thing to do unless the situation calls for it where it would fall at a decently high duration(Titan's Gaol comes to mind).

I'll make a list to make things a bit clearer:

SMN utility:

* unique dps Resurrect (I can argue my apoc doesn't matter anymore too, cause well I don't have to use it in my static... at all, but shit happens so I do.)

We may be the only DPS to bring an in combat raise but again, it's brought by healers we are better suited to use it (Don't waste 25% of their MP pool to use it, as an Elezen Summoner, my MP pool is 2983 and Raise is a 798 MP spell.)

*70-80% dps uptime on cc lock (SMN UNIQUE utility btw) this includes, blue orbs, titan goals, twintania blues, ramuh tethers + stun, leviathan dives, turn 8 missles, turn 7 shreik... you get it the list goes on and on and on. I guess you can say schs are capable of this as well.. but yea, not quite the same thing as you are different archetypes , this is pretty much our manaward/wall usage... almost... different but equal... well except this doesnt actually have a cooldown and is just the job being the job

* higher mobility, summoners have at worst 70-80% uptime on move and at best 100% I don't see how this is a arguable, it isnt based on rng either... its fairly free range try doing savage 8 for example and hitting snowflakes tower... if I'm bound as blm I sometimes lose my umbral/astral even @.@

That's way overexagerating. Worst case scenario, all of our DoTs have run out and Garuda/Ifrit are the only one attacking and we can't buff them so it would be 25% at worst (I'll admit that this particular scenario doesn't happen often but if you want to mention the worst scenario, this is it). And from all the parses I've seen so far of FCoB, Black Mages don't seem to struggle half as much with mobility as people are making it out to be.

* smn eye for an eye is better @ 33% more uptime

Eye for an Eye has the exact same potency whether it's used by a Black Mage or a Summoner. Enhanced Eye for an Eye only shortens the recast timer, not the potency. Even then, I don't know a lot of people that uses it on CD but for the sake of fairness, you'd be correct.

* smn virus is better

Again, Supervirus is used by the Scholar when it's a necessity.

* pet helps with splitting damage from hits like twintana fireball darnus beam etc

Fair point.

BLM has:

lesser e4e
lesser virus
apoc
manawall/ward
proc movement
aetherial manipulation but ya you can just walk
both jobs have sprint?

Which is still a decent amount of utility. Also having theoretically infinite MP is a huge benefit.

the damage difference is not 12% without procs, that was proven wrong

If it was proven wrong, I'd like to see a source for this. Not saying you're wrong but everything so far I've seen has been pointing toward that discrepancy.

Again, let me ask you: Black Mages has better single target, better survavibility, better AoE and infinite resource and all said damage having nearly no ramp up time whatsoever which makes it much easier for them to deal with adds. Does the meager difference in utility justify them having all that ?

[Romsca]

lets put this argument to bed. Black mage is king of the magic damage.

Summoner; Shadowflare, Bio, Bio 2, Miasma and Miasma 2 comes to 145 potency per 3 seconds. Summoner must maintain uptime by recasting. Ruin is 80 potency per 2.5 seconds.
Pets are just glorified dots, Ifrit 120pot/3 seconds, Garuda 100pot/4 seconds.

Black Mage: strip away astral fire stacks you can dish 240 potency every 3.5 seconds (fire 3/blizz 3). and you can maintain that infinitely.

Our bio is a total of 240 potency over 18 seconds. Black mage dishes that out in 3.5 seconds with blizz 3 and fire 3. Just strip umbral ice mp regen boost, increase potency of fire spells and increase cast times of all your spells. See how you do then.

Summoners are good pressure dps. But the flaw is they run out of mp in long fights maintaining that pressure then have to lower our dps by using energy drain. Just increase the Piety>MP so summoner is sitting at 4k or more instead of 3k.

PS; just realized I was putting 2.5 for blizz3/fire3 cast time. corrected it to 3.5.