Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[Xisin]

Summoners always forget to claim their mobility and 9th body as part of their utility. I'm back in the thread for a day... I have to develop this test for my class though (lol) I'm very happy to see summoners starting to break 500 now though. I've been tanking t13 lately (in a different static) and I must admit... I love that quick eye for an eye. Helps a shit ton on flare stars and the breaths between flattens. (33% more uptime on -10% damage, and when you are tanking it actually tells you when it procs... that's neat.)

[Akiza]

Summoners always forget to claim their mobility and 9th body as part of their utility. I'm back in the thread for a day... I have to develop this test for my class though (lol) I'm very happy to see summoners starting to break 500 now though. I've been tanking t13 lately (in a different static) and I must admit... I love that quick eye for an eye. Helps a shit ton on flare stars and the breaths between flattens. (33% more uptime on -10% damage, and when you are tanking it actually tells you when it procs... that's neat.)

Mobility on Summoner is useless since we have the lowest DPS potential and as DoT DPS mobility doesn't increase our Damage in the same way being Direct Damage would. The only thing that affects DPS on DoT is potency.

[Xisin]

that claim Akiza, is like saying that bards think their mobility is useless, it's pretty baseless. Mind you a good smn can beat a bard in t7 while kiting. BLM can kite t7 too! I've done it, but my dps is pitiful if i do so and the stacking method doesn't have quite the same appeal... dat freeze.

edit: saying that buffing smn will hurt blm isn't being dramatic, it's the truth, and it will be the truth for as long as pt structure dictates a binary decision between BLM and SMN. SMNs are very, very adaptable. This adaptability with the combination of damage reduction can and will muscle blms out if they are even on damage. (Yeah I said it, smns actually reduce more damage to the pt than blm, it might break even? Someone would have to math this. 20% on one big hit to one person vs 10% to 8 big hits and a pretty hefty duration on those procs, I will say E4e is a bit rng based though.)

Both casters do use e4e, but smns gets the minute off, if chain casted it is pretty darn meaningful. and can be subbed in for an apoc in a pinch, the proc rate is very generous. 10% off on flatten and ahk morn, is nice, plus 10% off all the autos that follow, and on EVERYTHING that happens while its activly procced... and it will proc almost every time it is used, most of the time it'll proc more than once. I do use e4e on blm, it's nice to fireweave with, and this passive is something I'm actually jealous of, would love that ability on a 2 min cd. Summoners also somewhat downplay super virus, but e4e is far more meaningful. I dare say with sch, smn, and whm it can be up quite a great deal, which with teamwork makes this a super dragon kick. Subbing in a blm on this rotation greatly reduces the effectiveness of this.

[Sen_Terrechant]

Alright Xisin here is the issue.

Most of our 'utility' can be used by other classes, all of it infact. Traited E4E and Virus can be used by Scholar, and the normal versions can be used by WHM and BLM. We get a minute off, but if your using it correctly your placing it about 15 seconds before big hits, so you dont need it to be cycled constantly. Super Virus is the same thing, used before big hits. Honestly the Scholar alone can cover 90% of Virus uses in FCoB.

Im not going to mention battle rez because with our manapool it fucks us over so much. I honestly want them to take it away and give us something else... but thats a story for another time.

So we get this small amount of utility that can be covered by other classes, nothing unique to the Summoner. Then you realize that our DPS is barely above a Bards? Furthermore we have some ability to move, and i wont try and pretend that we need to flat foot like a BLM but saying SMN can just move around willy nilly isnt correct. It requires us to know the fight, know when to move, and to fuck with our unstable mana pool to do so. Not to mention if the BLM gets a proc they can easily move just as well as a SMN, and i would KILL for Aetherial Minipulation.

So you throw all that togather with the fact that BLM has just as much utility (more if you count selfish utility), NO RESOURCE to micromanage, and they blow us out of the water on DPS.

How is that fair?

EDIT: Oh and last Coil the ideal setup was double caster with constant Foes played. So there is no reason to say that SMN being good will push out BLM. Yes there is fotm that goes on, but SMN is super weak right now compared to every DPS class. To deny that because your afraid you wont get to play BLM as much is silly. Go play a SMN in FCoB for a couple weeks, then come back.

EDIT2: OH I FORGOT TO MENTION, a chunk of our DPS is from being in melee range and hitting the mob with our books. BLM has no such requirement. If you try and play a totally ranged SMN our damage falls even more behind. Book whacks can add a good 20 DPS in certain situations, so we have to deal with a lot of the issues melee have and we do 100 less DPS!

[Xisin]

to say that e4e should only be up 15 seconds before a big hit isn't optimal. You can plan around it regardless and still have it up quite a bit. Overlapping utility is going to be a thing for you... technically it isn't overlapping since e4e comes from your base class... Overlap will always exists for your job due to being an arcanist, the same can be said for scholar.

This thread, and overall reaction from the summoner community is an overreaction. the dps comparisons in here at one one point where exaggerated, and so are the utility comparisons.

Really, all summoners need to be up to speed is a separate set of gear with no ss OR a rework for spell speed on smn. Then reduce mp costs across the board while making energy drain still relevant. Finally, give them a different passive other than a lame pet based spell speed proc. Done. summoner is fixed. Summoners do not need potency added to their kits... For PvE tri disaster could use something but pvp summoners would like to keep it.

[Sen_Terrechant]

I think 95% of what people are asking for here is a fix for our mana issues. Yet even if you fix those we still fall behind on damage.

So you think its fair for BLM to have better single target, better AoE, equal/more utility if you dont count battlerez, while having infinite mana? Uh huh, okay

[Tex_Mex]

saying that buffing smn will hurt blm isn't being dramatic, it's the truth, and it will be the truth for as long as pt structure dictates a binary decision between BLM and SMN.

You have to understand that one class cannot be better than another at everything.

AoE DPS: BLM>SMN
Obvious
ST DPS: BLM>SMN
This is already proven on every turn of FCoB. BLM has better gear scaling and can make better use of the stupid amount of spell speed found on all caster gear.
Utility: BLM>SMN
There are sooo many posts on this already. SMN utility is always either already available from a SCH, extremely detrimental to resource management, or discouraged by FCoB mechanics
Resource Management: BLM>SMN
Not even close, infinite resources versus a very limited mana pool
Mobility: SMN>BLM
Sure, summoners are a little bit more mobile than BLM, but not as mobile as most people give them credit for. The tradeoff is that SMN mobility comes at the cost of resource management, since ruin 2 costs A LOT more MP than ruin. This tradeoff is fine for low level content (everything that is not FCoB), but is unacceptable for FCoB. Fights have so much uptime that you cannot even use ruin 2 without severely handicapping your DPS later on in a fight.

BLM is better than SMN for ALL FCoB situations, which is the real issue. Each class should have its own strengths, and SMN is just not there. To bring them in line with BLM, SMN needs a minor buff to resource management (though they will never be as good as BLM in this regard) and a 5-7% buff in single target DPS. This would move them over BLM, but still leave them behind all melee DPS, which is where they should be. This change would result in the following:
AoE DPS: BLM>SMN
ST DPS: SMN>BLM
Utility: BLM>SMN
Resource Management: BLM>SMN
Mobility: SMN>BLM

Is that type of balance really that much to ask for? Yoshi P doesn't think so. In fact, he has already stated that changes are coming for SMN before 3.0 gets here.

Link: http://www.bluegartr.com/threads/124...=1#post6333229

[ShinryuReishiki]

I wish I had a T13 weapon. Not a Summoner book or BLM staff at the moment. Do you make videos, Shinryu? Wouldn't mind studying those. What is your opener?

Still missing the BLM weapon myself. As much as I'd like mine to drop, it'd be nice if our tanks could get something for a change...

What kind of videos? I don't think I'm someone that should be studied lol; I make lots of mistakes, and my numbers aren't anything special. I think my bests have been 500 T10, 480 T11, 500 T12, and 450 T13. We've been playing it kinda safe and holding DPS in second phase of T13 past few weeks, so I don't see myself managing any higher...

I don't really have a consistent opener... I've been trying a lot of different stuff lately. Since I can afford the MP hit now, this week I tried opening with Garuda-egi for Contagion and Rouse+Spur+Enkindle since Foe Requiem is guaranteed at the start, then swapping to Ifrit-egi. It seems to work pretty well, but I'm still fumbling around the whole thing.

I have considered making a video comparing Garuda-egi and Ifrit-egi, though. A lot more people are warming up to Ifrit-egi as a legitimate option, but it still seems like the majority of folks still think Contagion is some unbeatable ability...

I said in case you need mana. If you need use that energy drain later without raging strikes isnt it dps loss? If you know exactly how many energy drain you need in the current match, you should use those during cooldowns are up and not at the moment you have 100 mana.

I agree that using Energy Drain with cooldowns up is the best way to use it if you have to, as with Raging Strikes + X-Pot the loss versus a third unbuffed Fester becomes very minimal, but in the opener, the MP recovered may be wasted; that first Aetherflow should (mostly?) fill you up. I would definitely use an Energy Drain in a pet swap opener, however.

Out of the three abilities you list, only one is actually good for the group while the others help the BLM survive.

Not needing to be healed for mechanics is a big help to the group. Vastly reduced danger to 2 stack Rage of Bahamut, Earth Shaker, Tempest Wing, etc. gives healers more leeway and DPS time. In my group, I do handle using Virus, though, for the same reason; just one less thing for the SCH to worry about doing as he's putting up shields, covenant, soil...

Shadow Flare adds slow so that's 4. Can SCH do these two? Sure if you have one in the group. But SCH can also gives a 20% Magic Defense Buff for 20s so.... yea.

Shadow Flare's Slow is pretty great. There's one situation in Final Coil that it's particularly beneficial (Bennu phase), but it's a bit of double-edged sword when you're trying to avoid killing multiple Bennus at a time. (I may be guilty of just doing it anyway >_>) Also, there's 0 reason you wouldn't have a SCH in end-game content... If you're going to give up a healer spot, it's more likely the WHM.

Summoners always forget to claim their mobility and 9th body as part of their utility.

SMN doesn't have mobility any more than BLM does. In Second Coil, yeah, I didn't care; I'd run all over the place when playing SMN, but in Final Coil, I pretty much have to play as if I'm playing BLM when it comes to movement. For free movement, BLM gets Firestarter/Thundercloud and Swiftcast, and SMN gets Bio and Swiftcast; 2 chance-reliant procs versus an 18s DoT is pretty even, I think. Not really considering Scathe and Ruin II since they hurt a lot more than they help. Ideally, movement does not hurt a SMN as much as it can a BLM, but both jobs want to avoid moving as much as possible.

edit: saying that buffing smn will hurt blm isn't being dramatic, it's the truth, and it will be the truth for as long as pt structure dictates a binary decision between BLM and SMN. SMNs are very, very adaptable. This adaptability with the combination of damage reduction can and will muscle blms out if they are even on damage.

I agree with this. The only buff SMN really needs is an MP fix. It would allow them to have a mobility advantage again, resulting in a slight DPS buff; not enough to overtake BLM by any means, but enough to shrink the gap a little. Plus it could make the Raise useable without severely crippling the SMN like it does now... Mobility + Raise for a little lower DPS seems fair to me.

[Xisin]

look folks all I'm saying is simple, smn does have better utility than blm, I covered this earlier, at best its even, and otherwise smn wins out. Stop ignoring your convinent pet that LOVES to absorb effects like twins fireball and darnus's thermionic beam. Arguing about scob, and bcob is fair game in this case as we're discussing what 3.0 is bringing. FCOB alone is moot as it's over and the changes coming up don't really matter for todays raid. (it still matters ofc in the sense of say endurance fights.)

simply adjusting mp costs, not screwing smn over in gear and replacing the stupid pet proc already risks giving smns more damage. your resurrect is useful get over it. What the devs seem to shoot for with the two casters is BLM = more damage. SMN = more flexibility and utility. Both seem to be on the right trail.

The whole idea of this is so that imbalance doesn't happen again. Not so that one is indefinitely better than the other. At the same time the two classes need to serve a somewhat different purpose, a different fit for a different group. For example if you run a double bard pt then drg is a solid candidate for the melee slot. I personally would like to see summoner get the enchanter/necromancer treatment but I'm afraid this game won't allow a job to be complex. Cause let's face it, this game is pretty playschool when compared to other games.

* to elaborate on enchanters, Enchanters are a dot based class with a near infinite mp pool, their big thing was they had a pet, dots, had the ability to share their mp resource with others, enhanced melee dps, and had the ability to charm mobs. They traded this off however with very mediocre dps. Now in order to receive this t treatment smns would require a pretty hefty dps nerf. So whjat you would do is dot up, buff melee, buff caster,s re-dot, check mp levels of everyone, re-dot, fester etc. control pet and it goes on and on but that's a simple example.

edit - last post from me for a bit, but I'd like to point out that in situations such as t10 when you get blue orbed, smns loses about 4 ruins (like 1kish damage) but if they've planned ahead of time they still have pet + dots going, this is another nifty form of utility that smns get that other dpsers dont.

[scarebearz]

SMN doesn't have mobility any more than BLM does.

lol xD