Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[Xisin]

notice I said in the past let me recap some of my prior posts for you:

smn could deal with vines far more easily in turn 6 the pet was also not affected by blighted bouquet + dots are awesome on raffy anyway
smn could kite the hell out of t7 WHILE topping dps charts hands down king of the t7
t8 smn was sub par sure - this was some nice foreshadowing by se yes?
t9 smn provided an extra body for thermionic beam all while owning the golem phase and doing way above average on nael, which results in a won parse over even melee

smns didnt win by raw damage in any of those choices, rather they won by pure up time and functionality. They did however do more raw damage than blm in the bcob cycle. (lolthunder)

manawall or ward did jack for influences smn vs blm in scob it's only up to now that its actually been something that people like to bring up, fact is its pretty necessary for blm to function at the higher levels, its like saying that aetherial manipulation is game breakingly op for blm vs smn, when rather its just a core part of the kit.

Now before you say well that doesn't matter anymore it's over - the same argument may be applied to apoc now being that unless someone derps its unnecessary, i mainly hold it for weakened people in my pt now. Besides monk has a better version of it.

spell speed scaling is very good for blm crit is kind of lulsy ss also boost mobility for us Crit det is better for smn than blm for sure. Stop jumping to conclusions however, I never said your virus is an end all be all or your raise is awesome (although it is.) I simply think that you have utility in the ability to be relatively unhindered in dps output while maintaining a full run, t7 kiting proves that far more than anything. Looking back in the far past the extra body of garuda was even useful in twintania with red markers. I WISH scathe was even an option that I'd think about taking rather than trying to think around taking it. Ruin 2 is good for what its for, though it could use an mp reduction.

Summoner can only really interrupt two things : Bio 2 and Miasma... what else are you interrupting?

smn was good in bcob and did more damage than blm and smn was just plain better than blm in scob. BLM is better for once in a patch series let it pass.


Most summoners want to break the job (like you) and that isn't cool.

[ViviAnimus]

Vines were very easy to deal with as a BLM as well and simply put, BLM does more damage on T6. You keep coming back to older coil where SMN pretty much got outclassed one very turn after the BLM buff. T9 and T7 are debatable. could easily push 400 DPS there while SMN was around 380 in ilvl 107 gear. I've never seen a SMN of saw a SMN outDPS me in sells either. But it was pretty sweet in that place.

In secondary coil, Manaward was useful to reduce damge on T7, extremely useful on T8 for the Allagan field and also useful on T9 for megaflare or meteors. It's negated damage.
Manawall was indeed pretty useless in second coil, but on fights like Titan, on Twintania and perhaps more, it was great.
What utility did Summoner bring then in other coil? Nothing much. The raise was kind of an option, but that's it. (CON)

[ViviAnimus]

Apoc now can always be used on magical attacks to reduce the damage. On T10 for the targetted enemy, on T11 for nerve cloud on T12 for switching of Flames, on T13 for Akh Morn. That is an actual UNIQUE usage of that skill alone. Summoner has nothing.
Crit is is 0,234, DET is about 2.45 and SS is like 2.8 and more with Selene. So they are kind of the same and to even remotely compare it to what SS is to Summoner is just intolerably stupid (not that you do). Summoner was only better in SCoB until they buffed Black Mages. A buff well deserved. Now Summoner is obsolete with useless utility (even though you mention the most trivial of things). Raise isn't awesome, it's useless. It seems to me that you just want to stay on top with the easy playstyle of a Black Mage.

[ViviAnimus]

Most Summoners who ask for a small buff and a tweak in MP management are not here to break the job, I am am afraid. It is already broken. But this is the last talk I'm spending on this. I'm gong to just leave it at this. Let's agree that Summoner does need tweaks. I just think they also need a small buff in doing so

[Xisin]

Black mage is not on top it's the next to last. I dunno why people are so hung up on this lol. Vivi i know i out damage you blm on blm. I also know my smn out damages my blm in scob so don't give me that (before i got this spiffy dreadwyrm staff at least.). Giving smns more dps DOES break the job, it's been there before lol.

[ViviAnimus]

Well, I came back to read and you have just not encountered anything I said and made this in some sort of egotrip which just gives away your true motives. You know you do more damage on your Black Mage than I do? Oh, you do? And how do you know this? Based on the numbers I claimed? How do you know if I get Selene as often as you do? How do you know if your tactics aren't more BLM friendly? How do you now if I get Requiem and if it's Battlevoiced?
So based on something you can impossibly know, you build upon that premisse, that on your Summoner you out damage your Black Mage in second coil. This without apparently taking into account, that you might be a more skilled Summoner than a Black Mage.
Forgive me for saying this, but that was the most illogical drivel I have read in all of the Summoner threads.
The order is:
BRD, SMN, DRG/BLM (even after buff), Ninja, Monk. But I would like to actually refute stuff instead of making assumptions based on thin air

[ViviAnimus]

Don't get me wrong of course, the probability of you being a better Black Mage is very real, and I am pretty okay with that. I am however, going to read a bit and go to sleep. All the best

[Wizarus]

Black mage is not on top it's the next to last. I dunno why people are so hung up on this lol. Vivi i know i out damage you blm on blm. I also know my smn out damages my blm in scob so don't give me that (before i got this spiffy dreadwyrm staff at least.). Giving smns more dps DOES break the job, it's been there before lol.

Could have sworn this was before BLM buff and even before the Melee Buff. I seriously doubt SMN would be topping anywhere near Monk/Drg/Nin if it got a DPS buff.

[Havenchild]

Could have sworn this was before BLM buff and even before the Melee Buff. I seriously doubt SMN would be topping anywhere near Monk/Drg/Nin if it got a DPS buff.

Depends on what is buffed in particular. It can scale high really quickly if it was something like Potency to DoTs.

[Skeith-Adeline]

Make them stronger than BLMs. DONT make them stronger due to their DoTs. Increase Pet potency. Force them to micro manage. Reduce the strength of their DoTs greatly. Make it 80%/20% Pet to Dot ratio. Force SMNs to actually have to move their pet lol.