Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[point09micron]

And the reason? Because those are cross class skills? I did not say those skills are huge support. Even small support is support and better than nothing. Your statement is almost same than that Raging Strikes should not include damage increasing ability for SMN or BLM. Or invigorate should not include tp generating ability for bards/ninjas/monks.

Yes, that's exactly why. Obviously. You don't say "Scholar supports the group with Stoneskin," because it's A) not a skill they gain naturally, and B) not the optimal class to use it.

[Sunako]

Yes, that's exactly why. Obviously. You don't say "Scholar supports the group with Stoneskin," because it's A) not a skill they gain naturally, and B) not the optimal class to use it.

I do not really get your logic. If eye have 1min longer cd as BLM how that is not optimal class use it anymore? Or if virus is little weaker it can still be used on multiple adds in final coil etc. Comparing stoneskin does not make any sense.

[point09micron]

Once again: a list of ways one class supports the party should not include abilities from other classes. I don't see how this isn't clear.

[Sanguisio]

You both are correctish, moreso point09.

E4AE is regardless beneficial as they is no CD debuff
But virus I would argue isnt that great on blm due to a few things
-most mass AOEs e.g gigaflare, nerve gas, hellfire etc are magic damage and the BLM virus does nothing to this.
-Also while it does help with STR debuffing most BLMs use it at the wrong times which means antivirus is up when a SMN/SCH need to debuff properly. It's useful but not amazing.



But when discussing jobs you need to make it job specific, no point me saying CNJ is better than WHM because its 9 utilites which are half useful y'know.

BLM:
manaward - very meh only reduces damage by negligible amount, by comparison second wind destroys it and it is only applied to the BLM so not a party utility.
Manawall - alot better then manaward as you can use it for earthshockers etc but same as above helpful but any other dps can deal with the mechanics with heals or good timing e.g. titan LB on adds etc
apoc - amazing utility and should be used more often.
Lethargy - works on little where it matters usually overshadowed by miasma
Freeze - same as above shadowed by tri disaster, plus it will mess up fire/ice rotation where you should only have time to apply thunder then be back on fire so very rarely viable.
Sleep - amazing utility pvp, speedruns, etc but end game useless.

SMN
Virus - raid wide damage reduction of all types of damage.
E4AE - same as above and can be triggered on limitless mobs while it is up.
Resurrection - while you shouldnt be doing it at all, with ballad it is very viable raid utility and something no other class can do. There is a reason skills like auto life, life, raise etc are fundamental in RPGs and the fact a dps can do it is great. However without someone dying it is as useful as zilch, so it is situation-reliant.
Miasma - see above, also if they bring out mobs who regen as a mechanic, not the when I eat I get full health nonsense it will be even better.
SF - very minimal not worth mentioning.
Stun - its a stun nothing more needed.
Blind - its a blind nothing more needed.
knock back- " "
DPS without having to target - on fights like levi, t5 etc the DOTs still tick when you are unable to target them.
Tri - Disaster - the more useful of the useless binds

[point09micron]

Have to disagree with your statement on Manaward. When it's up, I take 0 damage from Diamond Dust pretty frequently. Same with Twintania's super (Aetheric Profusion or something). Assuming the other conditions are met anyways (adds down, standing in necklace).

[Sanguisio]

snip

ok thats cool, but 7/8 people still take damage, so you have just taken 0 damage in the event AOE healing will still be necessary. What is the benefit ? what is the benefit to the raid group?
If we were talking about solo utility, BLM would win with self damage mitigation but I was under the impression we were talking about raid utility.
But then again if we want to talk about solo utility titan egi will beat out every single solo utility there is in the game par SCH, ACN.

[Cerick]

Would adding a 5% mana regen skill that ticks for 15 seconds on a 90 second cool down resolve the mana issue? Who cares if this passes over to SCH as well ( in turn you could add 5 mp to the cost of SCH skills to compensate for them having an additional way to regen mana )

[Sanguisio]

My idea was a stacking buff which maxes at 3 which provides a mana refresh effect. You stack/maintain it by keeping your DOTs up.

[Xisin]

I've argued this point to death in several posts across too many threads. you guys should just keep it to one thread instead of making millions (not literally) of threads about it.

Summoners still do well in short term fights, they still beat blm in certain fights, I know of a good smn in my fc who still beats me in t7 and t9, and honestly depending on group strategy he's prob beat me in t6 savage or even basic t6. I consider myself a fairly top of the line blm too. Smns hands down win on leviathan and might win out on blm in moogle ex (though starter double flare is really good ahaha.) I bring this up because fights change by the patch and we're on the cusp of a new patch anyway. It just happens that the fcob fights lean more toward endurance this time, although they are shortening with gear.

BLM is very dependent on Selene for their numbers as well as general group strat, way more so than other dps. my numbers range wildly depending on two things - bards foe use and which fairy is used. interrupting these spells hurt blm dps a ton - Thunder 2/3, Flare, Fire III. SMN doesnt get punished like that in any circumstance. Sadly sometimes these interrupts kinda happen as forced movements happen. (blue orb in t10, tethers in 11, depending on strategy redfire/bluefire in t12 and earth shakers and megaflare in t13, fuck multi earth shakers though, seriously.) Point is based on how my party feels like playing I can vary by as much as 50 dps. Selene having the most impact.

Summoners just suck bad in endurance fights, this was made glaringly obvious in turn 8 when summoner was still the preferred caster. Simply fix energy drain to scale instead of giving a flat amount, give them contagion as an ability, give more mp return on aetherflow, rework tri disaster and give miasma 2 a bit of a potency boost to make it worthwhile. Give them almost infinite mp like blms have, just make sure they pay for it like a blm does (260 dps ice phase op)

Finally keep their damage lower than blm but give them more utility than melees bring to the table - example: dragon kick is really an aoe apocatastatis at half effectiveness with 100% up time in most cases (it isnt when the mob is untargetable) I wouldn't be too comfortable if they gave them a magic debuff ability though.

Casters in general are just weaker than melee right now, this is on topic because in reality there are 3 dps slots to compete for, not one. Each pt set up wants at least one type of all the lbs meaning it isn't a bad thing to bring 2 casters and 1 melee... This however isn't the case - its simply absurd to bring 2 casters due to dps differences and utility differences

to further that lets look: (I'll order it by usefulness)

BRD: obvious they have op songs for utility but are punished by their dps, no issues they also have a silence

NIN: still a #1 contender for top dps, trick attack provides a 1.6% overall increase for every dps in the pt + tanks. Goad enables less paeon, particularly if double nin is utilized, stun, silence. Have not seen anyone top a ninjas top parse yet (610 on turn 10, 603ish on t11 etc.)

MNK: AOE apocatastasis with no downtime at half effectiveness #1 contender for top dps, stun and a derpy aoe silence

DRG - buff bards by 10% - can provide a tertiary tank (try it they are very durable now), single target attack speed slow, stun, all the melees are fairly close in damage now

SMN - Battle res, enhanced eye for an eye, Super virus, aoe attack speed slow via shadow flare, 2nd strongest aoe, can heal in pinch, and the biggest utility you have as smn - your pet an uninterruptible source of damage unless you screw up and either die, or get the pet killed, also dots are almost always up.

BLM - apoc, regular virus, eye for an eye, single target attack speed slow, strongest aoe, can heal in a pinch

job difficulty is not a valid argument in any of these jobs, just what they are capable of on the top level, difficulty is subjective.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

ok thats cool, but 7/8 people still take damage, so you have just taken 0 damage in the event AOE healing will still be necessary. What is the benefit ? what is the benefit to the raid group?
If we were talking about solo utility, BLM would win with self damage mitigation but I was under the impression we were talking about raid utility.
But then again if we want to talk about solo utility titan egi will beat out every single solo utility there is in the game par SCH, ACN.

At least get your facts right before you make claims. So much misinformation from this and your previous post.