Can someone give me an in-depth explanation why Summoner is arguably the worst DPS?

[Akiza]

The Black Mage potency is 12% higher than Summoner's. SE should either buff the Summoner's DoT potency by 12% or increase pet potency.

[PenutButter]

The Black Mage potency is 12% higher than Summoner's. SE should either buff the Summoner's DoT potency by 12% or increase pet potency.

NO, SMNs SHOULD NOT be doing as much damage as BLM in a stationary fight. First of all, BLMs are more affected by fight mechanics that requires them to move. Good BLMs and good fight strategies can really minimize this and this is where the issue can be complicated but bad BLMs can be destroyed by mechanics. Second, SMNs has more utlity than BLMs. Raise and a superior Virus outstrips Apocatastasis in the majority of cases, you have to be insane to argue otherwise. Are they needed? No, but they are better. Manawall and Manaward are nice and sometimes convenient gimmicks more than anything but they are not gonna affect the raid in much of any way.

Admittedly, I have not done extensively testing on this lately so maybe SMN do need a buff. I do remember that they can do insane amount of damage in 2nd coil and I doubt that has changed much but who knows. I also remember that SMN do benefit quite a bit more from INT pots if used right but I dunno how significant that is now. However, they DEFINITELY should not be doing as much damage as BLM in a stationary fight. Also, I whole-heartedly agree that the BLM buff was a mistake.

After doing a several tests on dummy on my ilv108 BLM and SMN (basically, equal gear and 110 weapons), I found that though BLM does around 420 average (though BLM fluctuate a lot) and SMN does 400 average. Though I can't say how much movement mechanics, INT pot, and requiem is gonna affect this, ~5% difference is not that significant.

[BlaiseArath]

NO, SMNs SHOULD NOT be doing as much damage as BLM in a stationary fight.

Mmmm, I don't know if I can agree(though I mention below an addendum to this). They're both caster jobs, and BLM has specialty in AoE damage where its uncontested champion... why should it have specialty in both AoE and Single target over SMN? Now, I actually like Eye for an Eye and Virus is nice when used right, but I rarely if ever have a situation where battle raise matters... If I'm raising on SMN we're already dead beyond hope, or I can say goodbye to my DPS forever because there goes so much MP, and bam, right back to our main problem, longevity and MP management.

I know you mention BLM suffers when it has to move a lot... and SMNs DoT's still tick if needing to move and they have Ruin II (at higher MP cost, back to MP issues...), so I kinda get where you're coming from, actually, so I don't think its without validity.

Agreed. I would accept party buffs based on pets.
I.e. ifrit increases melee damage by 5%

Like Avatar's Favor ? (from XI...)

I could get behind this, though it opens up a lot of problems. Such as being asked to use a certain pet that might not be as optimal as another... or being asked to switch a pet mid fight for certain buffs, further sh*tting on our MP conservation. But if they did give buffs...?

Ifrit: STR Bonus or Melee DPS Increase?
Garuda: INT Bonus or Magic DPS increase?
Titan: VIT Bonus or Defense increase?
(Ramuh): DEX bonus or Ranged DPS increase?
(Leviathan): MND Bonus or Healing Potency Increase?

[Ronove]

Like Avatar's Favor ? (from XI...)

I could get behind this, though it opens up a lot of problems. Such as being asked to use a certain pet that might not be as optimal as another... or being asked to switch a pet mid fight for certain buffs, further sh*tting on our MP conservation. But if they did give buffs...?

Ifrit: STR Bonus or Melee DPS Increase?
Garuda: INT Bonus or Magic DPS increase?
Titan: VIT Bonus or Defense increase?
(Ramuh): DEX bonus or Ranged DPS increase?
(Leviathan): MND Bonus or Healing Potency Increase?

If you think this would open too many issues of being asked to use certain pets, it would be cooler if you could summon pets quicker and have them cost less MP. So if the situation changes (oh no! more heals are needed! bring out Leviathan--or oh no! huge hit incoming, bring out Titan for a little bit etc.), you can do that without suffering. It would bring utility to SMN and I think make SMNs feel more connected to their pets instead of "here's something that does damage sit there and go at it". I think what SE did with this game is try to put too much of the Summons do massive damage so they should cost a lot of MP in this game and it's not working. If they do the buffing certain party members, then the summons need to be changed so it isn't going to hurt the summoner to resummon a pet for different situations.

[Lilyarel]

Snip.

Im so tired of seeing people bring up res as utility. Summoner has the lowest Mana pool in the magic classes and you want them to cast one of the most expensive spells? Youre destroying their mana pool that way and forcing them to use ED instead of Fester. Youre losing out on so much damage its ridiculous. Leave resing to the healers, they have mana that can afford such a high spell cost. Secondly, if you need more than 2 resurrections in a single fight, youre going to wipe.

[ViviAnimus]

Again this utter nonsense how Summoner has better utility. Summoner has no unique utility, Black Mage does. That is the only argument that has not yet been refuted. Virus on a Summoner? Don't have to use it? Eye for an Eye on a Summoner? Don't have to use it? Raise on a Summoner, don't really have to use it and when you do, you're pretty fucked anyway. Summoner has no utility because it's not unique. Enhanced Virus is only useful on Gigaflares in T13. The SCH virusses that. You can virus the adds or something, but a BLM or a WHM can do that as well. I also am astonished that you for some reason think that utility that isn't needed is actually better than utilility that actually is. By that I mean that the unique utility a BLM has, is needed more precisely for that reason. Perhaps you are insane?

Concerning stationary fights. Can we stop pretending moving for Black Mages is hard and that it affects your DPS by such a large margin? It's piss easy and if you are having difficulties, then you need to up your game, it's that simple.
Summoner damage was never insane, it was good.
If you believe the Black Mage buff was a mistake, then I would like you to eleborate. It's still behind melee classes and is pretty much only usefull (in DPS terms) for LB3. Ah, but you are a Pugilist, you wouldn't understand. Probably too busy being top DPS from patch 2.1 till now.

I am also trying to figure out how you did 420 DPS with your level 3 thaumaturge and how you managed to only get 20 less DPS on your level 6 arcanist. I mean, three levels is a HUGE DPS increase. Maybe the arcanist outdamaged the BLM and we should nerf the ARC!
You're a fucking moron

[Huntington]

snip

You could probably say everything you want just as effectively without being a bass, just so you're aware.

Like Avatar's Favor ? (from XI...)

I could get behind this, though it opens up a lot of problems. Such as being asked to use a certain pet that might not be as optimal as another... or being asked to switch a pet mid fight for certain buffs, further sh*tting on our MP conservation. But if they did give buffs...?

Ifrit: STR Bonus or Melee DPS Increase?
Garuda: INT Bonus or Magic DPS increase?
Titan: VIT Bonus or Defense increase?
(Ramuh): DEX bonus or Ranged DPS increase?
(Leviathan): MND Bonus or Healing Potency Increase?

I like these suggestions quite a bit. People, maybe only a few, maybe several thousand, have been clamoring for pets to be utilized in a fashion where the SMN will switch them around constantly as a fight changes. Utilizing each pet and not just parking it right on Garuda for 95% of most content would be an amazing way to actually feel like a SMN if you're swapping around your pets to get different benefits for your party. When the expansion hits and we get our guaranteed Ramuh egi, and the to be confirmed Leviathan Egi, if they gave them statuses like what you said, I'd like that quite a bit.
If we did that, made Contagion an actual SMN cooldown instead of having it be tied to Garuda, and then I saw someone else's suggestion that Fester crits could give an additional Aetherflow stack. That allows you even more possible uses and possible gained stacks if you're lucky, and if needed, you can probably use an Energy Drain for the additionals if the RNG is working with you. I know people have said that Energy Drain is a DPS loss through and through if you're not using Fester, but no one should honestly care if you're still Fester'ing just as much if not even more depending on how often you are crit'ing and getting those bonus Aetherflows. This way, since Fester is tied to SMN and Energy Drain is on ACN, there would not need to be an adjusting to Energy Drain to help SMN with it's MP issues and mess up the perfect flow that SCH has right now.

[ilmynasa]

There's no point in discussing this topic like this, since people obvious are on different grounds.

This is what smn who have cleared T13 or close to it feels about blm:
You just have to work so hard to achieve the same level of dps as a blm. Personally the effort in playing smn to achieve the same level of dps as a blm or a good brd is just ridiculous. I've been playing smn since 2.0, and I have to say I am proud of my dps for almost hitting 480ish on T13, but compared to my static's blm who just started playing like a month ago (switched back to blm) and doing 450dps, I feel mistreated. And I have a good idea of where other T13 clear smn's dps is around......

So to the casual:
You guys can argue what utilities smn have, for the small portion of us who are HC progression, we all know what smn can do. What's smn utility? Is it edible? lulz. I don't think I can argue this point with anyone who haven't cleared T12 yet, our worlds are just too different.

/end of rant

[Sen_Terrechant]

There's no point in discussing this topic like this, since people obvious are on different grounds.

This is what smn who have cleared T13 or close to it feels about blm:
You just have to work so hard to achieve the same level of dps as a blm. Personally the effort in playing smn to achieve the same level of dps as a blm or a good brd is just ridiculous. I've been playing smn since 2.0, and I have to say I am proud of my dps for almost hitting 480ish on T13, but compared to my static's blm who just started playing like a month ago (switched back to blm) and doing 450dps, I feel mistreated. And I have a good idea of where other T13 clear smn's dps is around......

So to the casual:
You guys can argue what utilities smn have, for the small portion of us who are HC progression, we all know what smn can do. What's smn utility? Is it edible? lulz. I don't think I can argue this point with anyone who haven't cleared T12 yet, our worlds are just too different.

/end of rant

Pretty much this. Pulling 455 unmerged, 480ish merged DPS on T13 while tryharding your pants off and knowing that the BLM can easily pull 10-20 DPS more then you is frusterating. Even moreso when you realise that most of that DPS is coming simply from the add phase boosting your numbers through AoE which the BLM can abuse far better then you can. Not to mention to really pull good DPS we have to be in melee range, unlike the BLM. Yes, book whacks add a good 20 DPS guys.

Couple that with the fact our utility isnt really that great (not any more then a BLM. Remember kids: They have a virus and E4E too, along with Apocostasis which is godly for progression, and Manawall/Manaward/Aetherial Minipulation which are all godly for progression as a caster class) and its just ugh.

The issue people have with summoner isnt at the lower or mid level of play, it simply comes about at the very high levels of play with people that are min/maxing. Most people will never encounter a SMN feeling subpar, but for those of us playing at that very high level of play its frusterating. We have to micromanage our mana, our pets, and be in melee for book whacks all while managing the normal DPS stuff like DoTs and cooldowns- all for subpar DPS. We really only BEAT a BRD, and thats only because they sing songs (we would be about equal with a bard if they didnt, and we have half the utility)

Yes SMN can clear content, Yes SMN can pull okay DPS. Yet for 95% of content BLM does it better.

[ViviAnimus]

snip.

Amen, brother. A-men