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  1. #171
    Player
    Xisin's Avatar
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    Apr 2012
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    286
    Character
    Xisin Fendada
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by ViviAnimus View Post
    Well, I came back to read and you have just not encountered anything I said and made this in some sort of egotrip which just gives away your true motives. You know you do more damage on your Black Mage than I do? Oh, you do? And how do you know this? Based on the numbers I claimed? How do you know if I get Selene as often as you do? How do you know if your tactics aren't more BLM friendly? How do you now if I get Requiem and if it's Battlevoiced?
    So based on something you can impossibly know, you build upon that premisse, that on your Summoner you out damage your Black Mage in second coil. This without apparently taking into account, that you might be a more skilled Summoner than a Black Mage.
    Forgive me for saying this, but that was the most illogical drivel I have read in all of the Summoner threads.
    The order is:
    BRD, SMN, DRG/BLM (even after buff), Ninja, Monk. But I would like to actually refute stuff instead of making assumptions based on thin air
    Okay, I'll just lay this out then you change what you say a lot in a debate here let me give you some examples:

    Quote Originally Posted by ViviAnimus View Post
    Xisin

    To say BLM DPS is dependent on Selene is not entirely true. It gets a huge boost from it, but it is not dependent on it. Black Mage is the only class able to benefit from it, there you have another perspective.
    Getting to move or moves being interrupted is a DPS loss but it is also quite recoverable. On T13, I easily get 510 DPS (unmerged) while having to deal with three+ earth shakers throughout the fight, moving for megaflares...


    Difficulty might be subjective, but BLM is piss easy
    When I called you on your statement you backpedaled.

    Quote Originally Posted by ViviAnimus View Post
    I did 470 in T10 with 120 weapon and ilvl 119. Now I am ilvl 126 with 130 weapon and I push nearly 500 DPS on every turn expect T11 where I simply stick at 480 for some reason. (SCH uses Eos on final phase) Also do mind that it's unmerged. So on T13 that's 480 DPS. Merged it can vary from 500 to 510 easily.
    Also from this quote you can easily see you do have selene, foe doesn’t really account for much of an increase – you are looking at 4% overall max.

    Quote Originally Posted by ViviAnimus View Post
    T9 and T7 are debatable. could easily push 400 DPS there while SMN was around 380 in ilvl 107 gear. I've never seen a SMN of saw a SMN outDPS me in sells either. But it was pretty sweet in that place.
    This is what caused me to compare my blm damage to yours then to my smn, back in our 2.2 arguments on the state of blm (you strongly favored moving and casting iirc) Seeing that you’ve “never seen a smn outdamage yours” But I’m teling you on my first run through scob on smn ever I out dpsed my blm lol. The same blm that you couldn’t figure out where my damage was coming from (I don’t want to refer to myself in the third person) As a matter of fact you made up excuses on why people were out damaging you – so ya don’t bring up your personal numbers unless you are prepared for them to be used against you.

    Quote Originally Posted by ViviAnimus View Post
    The order is:
    BRD, SMN, DRG/BLM (even after buff), Ninja, Monk. But I would like to actually refute stuff instead of making assumptions based on thin air
    Brd really isn’t something to bring up for low damage, they are auto slotted in raid groups due to their insane utility, we debate on dps slots as if only 3 exists to begin with.

    DRG is stronger than blm – I don’t think you’ve seen a strong drg.
    I think mnk nin and drg are all fairly close actually.

    Finally, my motives are clear I don’t want smn to get potency, I dunno how to stress that more, Just like I don’t think blm should allow for firestarter stacking or surecast moving and casting. I’d much prefer the game be balanced and not power creep out of control, smns problems can be fixed with simple mp reductions and ability relocations, giving potency to summoners will simply make them stronger than blm, and put blm in the same position it was in when scob started. That’s no good. Meaning that in the past year SE effectively accomplished nothing. (if smn potency buffs happen.)
    (1)

  2. #172
    Player
    Xisin's Avatar
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    Apr 2012
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    Character
    Xisin Fendada
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 90
    yep those kill numbers were back in early November/October with the exception of T13... how were your numbers back in November/December on these fights? in i110 playing as cautious as I did. My most recent numbers are out there if you want to find them its pretty easy to do so (as of 3 weeks ago, so my gear was like i122 + i130 wep at the time, I haven't submitted anything since.) Those nov clear vids featured many things I don't do now. The t12 was a first clear the t11 was my alt on first use, the t13 was a first clear. the t10 was something I put up as a result of someone asking me of a recording of what I did to break 500+ on t10 and I messed up a bunch with a rather embarrassing mistake at the end, I do not only talk about my best of the best performances. I need to also say that you stated very recently that parses really don't measure squat.

    Unless you reply back with a fib I'll leave it be.

    - your gear will change as a smn - so all that lost dps on gear will come back naturally. I highly doubt the next set will be so spell speed saturated Gear sets are easier to change than your hard values on your spells

    - If you stop running out of mp and are able to keep up shadow flare + maintain Ruin 2s + use miasma 2 + use festers instead of energy drain your dps will improve, being stuck with garuda 24/7 due to mp issues also isn't helping summoner. serious mp cost buffs should fix this

    - Asking for something for smns out of spell speed is fair and sure you should not have a useless stat. Quite honestly summoner should improve its numbers when the world of darkness gears is released.

    - Asking for potency is not the way, adding a mere 5 potency per tick on Bio 2 would make it a whopping 50 more potency better, Miasma 2 would see a 40 point increase and Bio would see a smaller 30 point increase - With that in mind SMNs much like bard have near 100% if not 100% up time on everything if played properly.
    (0)
    Last edited by Xisin; 01-14-2015 at 10:58 PM.

  3. #173
    Player
    ViviAnimus's Avatar
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    May 2014
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    261
    Character
    Vivi Stargazer
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Arcanist Lv 50
    Don't worry, I took all that into account. Hence why I mentioned that they were presumably first kill video, Xisin, and for first kill videos, it's not too impressive. That is all the data, I had. Of course I realise your best performances outshine your first kills greatly, as do mine. But alright, there no use to quarrel over numbers. I have no issue with you being a better Black Mage. It was just that you have no rational foundation to make that claim.
    The gear, I agree with your remark. Although having spell speed on the High Allagan and Dreadwyrm book for example shows how ignorant they are at SE or how they are for some reason doing it that I do not yet know of.
    Yes, MP should be fixed, I agree! The world of Darkness gear is most likely going to be around ilvl 120. If you are to replace the 3-4 pieces that have the useless SS, you would have to sacrifice 10 to even 15 int. So I'm afraid that it doesn't really solve anything.
    You shouldn't up the potency of the dots. The potency of Fester should be more so you can actually sustain a better DPS instead of it dropping to a certain points and never being able to get it back up. That's what I suggest.
    (0)

  4. #174
    Player
    Tex_Mex's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    412
    Character
    Tex Mex
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 90
    SMN is better than BLM at NOTHING, and that is the real heart of the problem. I don't care what they change, DPS or utility, but if the SMN can never do ANYTHING better than BLM in FCoB, then we have a serious balance issue.

    It is of vital importance that DPS classes are close in line with their available alternatives, otherwise you get situations like the one we are in. Look at the 3 melee, they all bring something unique to the raid and they are are well balanced:

    ST DPS: MNK>NIN>DRG
    AoE DPS: DRG>NIN>MNK
    Utility: MNK>NIN>DRG (debatable)

    BRD has no comparison because it is mandatory for everything FCoB (though maybe machinist will help balance this)

    Now compare with SMN and its one alternative BLM:
    Utility: BLM>SMN
    ST DPS: BLM>SMN
    AoE DPS: BLM>SMN
    Sustainability: BLM>SMN

    Please swap one of those around so that SMN at least has some merit. This misbalance has been here for a long time, it was just not as noticeable during SCoB timeframe because of the way SMN gear scales compared to BLM. Now that 120+ gear is available, the gap is massive.
    (0)

  5. #175
    Player
    Xisin's Avatar
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    Character
    Xisin Fendada
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    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 90
    I think the mp values should be adjusted before potency on anything is touched, fix things one step at a time as not to break the class, this includes fester for me, naturally with mp savings you won't need to energy drain as much (and maybe it'll become unofficial sch use only - the op cousin of the smn)

    That's all I have to add to this discussion otherwise I'd be repeating myself over and over and just arguing.
    (0)

  6. #176
    Player
    Judge_Xero's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
    Location
    Ul'dah
    Posts
    2,228
    Character
    Divine Gate
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Xisin View Post
    I think the mp values should be adjusted before potency on anything is touched, fix things one step at a time as not to break the class, this includes fester for me, naturally with mp savings you won't need to energy drain as much (and maybe it'll become unofficial sch use only - the op cousin of the smn)

    That's all I have to add to this discussion otherwise I'd be repeating myself over and over and just arguing.
    I'm still not convinced that SMN issues are MP issues. Energy Drain and Fester in themselves are such a small portion of SMN damage outside of the ability to burst damage on mobs.

    Just imagine that SMN had unlimited MP. How much could you realistically increase your Damage by. I estimate 15-20 DPS over a 10 minute fight where you aren't having to pace yourself.
    +40 Potency/minute using Miasma II with Contagion
    More AA damage by spamming Ruin II
    100% Fester vs using Energy Drain 1/3 of the time.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    Unfortunately that still leaves SMN behind by a large margin @ i130

    -----------------------------------------------------------------

    I thought that part of the issue between BLM and SMN was that SMN gear scaling was lower than BLM, thus causing BLM to essentially out-gear SMN at the same iLvl - but after further examination post 2.4 - they scale equally from gear. (other than the way Spell Speed effects SMN)

    What I mean by they scale equally from gear is:
    100 Potency does X damage for BLM @ iLvl
    100 Potency does X damage for SMN @ iLvl

    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    I did a Potency/s breakdown of SMN (I can't remember where I put it, but I believe it was around 118 Potency/s single target with 100% up time) including the pet.

    I'm curious what the average potency/s of a BLM single target rotation is, because I suspect it must be much higher. Not including Thunder/Fire procs.

    I'm no BLM - but I estimate that BLM single target potency/s is in the area of 130 Potency/s not counting the benefit of Random Procs, which could probably bring it up to 135 Potency/s.

    So that brings BLM 10% higher than SMN given the same gear + the potential for an additional 5%+
    (0)
    Last edited by Judge_Xero; 01-15-2015 at 01:25 AM.

  7. #177
    Player
    Tex_Mex's Avatar
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    Aug 2013
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    Character
    Tex Mex
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 90
    Slightly buffing the MP sustainability would help some, and it would also provide very minor DPS increase since you could fester more often, but it would not be enough for SMN to still compete with BLM in any of the 4 categories that I listed.

    I am in favor of a slight buff to SMN sustainability, and also a slight buff to their ST DPS capability (likely through their pet so as to not buff SCH). I believe that SMN single target DPS should be roughly 2-3% higher than BLM, to make up for the fact that their AoE damage is nowhere near as good.

    Even with both of these things looked at, BLM would still be preferable over SMN for a lot of final coil due to the weaknesses of DoT mechanics against adds that only live for a short time, but at least the SMN would have a niche. The only FCoB turn they would have an edge on BLM is T11 due to the lack of smaller adds.
    (0)

  8. #178
    Player
    Tex_Mex's Avatar
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    Character
    Tex Mex
    World
    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge_Xero View Post
    I'm still not convinced that SMN issues are MP issues. Energy Drain and Fester in themselves are such a small portion of SMN damage outside of the ability to burst damage on mobs.

    Just imagine that SMN had unlimited MP. How much could you realistically increase your Damage by. I estimate 15-20 DPS over a 10 minute fight where you aren't having to pace yourself.
    +40 Potency/minute using Miasma II with Contagion
    More AA damage by spamming Ruin II
    100% Fester vs using Energy Drain 1/3 of the time.
    Xisin has made it abundantly clear that he believes SMN is not in need of a DPS increase. I do not agree with that stance; however, it is important to take smaller steps when buffing classes to avoid one class becoming entirely overpowered. As of right now, BLM is very overpowered when compared to SMN, but if we buff SMN too far than SMN will just become overpowered and we will be in the same crappy situation again.
    (0)
    Last edited by Tex_Mex; 01-15-2015 at 01:08 AM.

  9. #179
    Player
    Xisin's Avatar
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    Character
    Xisin Fendada
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    Sargatanas
    Main Class
    Thaumaturge Lv 90
    and what if crit and det replaced all spell speed on your gear? The problem lies not in abilities alone, it's fairly compounding and if I'm correct in the assumption isolated to patch 2.4/2.5. every 4-5 det should roughly equal 1 int. It isn't unheard of for SE to change stats on items (recall allagan boots i90 version) I'm mainly talking about the lolwtf dreadwyrm book. Just proper itemization would add about 5-10 more dps, and looking at your previous numbers smns would then beat blm in 10 and 11. This would easily put them over the 500 marker, maybe above 520 depending on management during adds.
    (0)

  10. #180
    Player
    Judge_Xero's Avatar
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    Mar 2011
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    Ul'dah
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    Character
    Divine Gate
    World
    Exodus
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 60
    Quote Originally Posted by Xisin View Post
    and what if crit and det replaced all spell speed on your gear? The problem lies not in abilities alone, it's fairly compounding and if I'm correct in the assumption isolated to patch 2.4/2.5. every 4-5 det should roughly equal 1 int. It isn't unheard of for SE to change stats on items (recall allagan boots i90 version) I'm mainly talking about the lolwtf dreadwyrm book. Just proper itemization would add about 5-10 more dps, and looking at your previous numbers smns would then beat blm in 10 and 11. This would easily put them over the 500 marker, maybe above 520 depending on management during adds.

    I updated my above post to include what I feel is a reasonable value for BLM Potency/s to make a comparison for SMN Potency/s.

    Gear wise, you are correct that better itemization for SMN could probably add an additional 5-10 DPS. (I'm to the idea that it would be closer to 5 DPS)

    On average this would leave a gap of ~50 DPS for any given turn in FCOB, which brings me back to that Potency/s value of BLM that is 10% higher.

    T10 - SMN 470 vs BLM 525 (SMN + 10% = 517 DPS)

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    So going from 2COB to FCOB we have the increase damage from gear + more up-time in FCOB for BLM to maintain damage, which makes this difference more obvious.

    i.e. (i106)
    BLM 442 DPS max
    SMN 401 DPS max

    So you only start out with a 41 DPS difference. Add in movement + boss jumps etc and you only end up with +/- 10 DPS between each

    FCOB (i111)
    BLM 460 DPS
    SMN 417 DPS

    Out of the gate, BLM starts 43 DPS higher with the potential for more.

    Estimated DPS i131
    BLM 585
    SMN 531

    (a whopping 56 DPS higher - almost exactly 10% higher) - does not include SMN loss of damage for things dying faster, or lucky BLM procs (less tick time)

    - Prior to BLM buffs in 2.3

    Estimated: BLM 115 Potency/s with the option for %5+

    So...was BLM actually well balanced prior to it's buffs?

    ------------------------

    I mean Melee DPS is getting pretty crazy, but prior to 2.3 BLM buffs at least the mage classes were close to equal.
    (0)
    Last edited by Judge_Xero; 01-15-2015 at 03:36 AM.
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