Are cracks in the Armoury System beginning to surface?

[Leenk]

The number of abilities you have is irrelevant, only the number of abilities that you can equip simultaneously matters. Every time youi equip a skill from a different class you can not equip one from the class you are using.

Exactly, but the ones from your class that you can no longer equip are junk and the ones you gain can and will determine the quality of the player. What the OP, and myself, are trying to convey is that having the free time to rank up more classes will make you a more useful tank regardless of skill.
I like the system. But i should not be required to rank up nearly every class to 50 in order to as good as another. Skill should be more important than it is.

[Felis]

Isn't multiple classes with multiple skills for personal builds the sell point number 1 since beta?

And there is coming a job system for party roles, too
Wait up what skills a paladin can use and complain later

[Shikyo]

I'm actually starting to like the game thanks to 1.18 the one final problem is the Armoury system to me it sux all the classes are soooo generic XI's job/sub was awesome and far better then this one.

Hopefully when they add real defined classes and drop the stupid phys lvl we'll see things improve.

Show me Paladin ninja redmage whitemage blackmage SAMURAI summoner please!
Sooooo tired of playing Guywithbow dudewithsword homeboywithtwigdoinmagic, generic boring classes this is the biggest problem with the game for me atm as well.

One more thing I saw it said earlier about crafting, I agree that it should be a damn hobby in the game not a damn class sheesh.

There is truly only 6 freaking classes in this game i only count the ones you can actually take and kill a mob with, the crafts being indivisual classes is dumb as hell to me, add a freakin thief/rouge w/e you wanna call it for cripes sake, and where the hell is the dual wield =/

1.18 is tasty, but SE still needs to tighten up on the Class system big time!

If they bring some classes worth playing to the game I got my check book ready to pay for this bad boy.
Or am I the only one that misses slicing gobs into bite size pieces with a katana.

[Kiote]

I'm actually starting to like the game thanks to 1.18 the one final problem is the Armoury system to me it sux all the classes are soooo generic XI's job/sub was awesome and far better then this one.

The Classes are not Generic in any way. They are all in fact very diverse and each have there own individual perks. I'm afraid it is you my friend who is generic. You are clearly building all of your Classes the same way and that is why they feel the same.

I personally have 5 different types of builds I use. Reactionary, Power Damage, Melee Mage, AOE Melee and Damage Absorption.

No one can honestly say this game is just a bunch of generic classes. There are so many different ways to play. If you can't figure that out it means you yourself only like playing one way.

[Physic]

The Classes are not Generic in any way. They are all in fact very diverse and each have there own individual perks. I'm afraid it is you my friend who is generic. You are clearly building all of your Classes the same way and that is why they feel the same.

I personally have 5 different types of builds I use. Reactionary, Power Damage, Melee Mage, AOE Melee and Damage Absorption.

No one can honestly say this game is just a bunch of generic classes. There are so many different ways to play. If you can't figure that out it means you yourself only like playing one way.

I think he means the classes themselves dont define much, the problem is they should have made something higher than disciplines to simulate classes. Disciplines are just disciplines, they provide different skills that make sense for that discipline, your role is something else.

Also i would say disciplines are little more generic now, the differences in melee have gone down a lot with the basic ability timers being 30-60 seconds. The skills sets you can make have only changed a bit, due to mp being huge now, but the actual difference between diciplines, over all is lower.

[Amsai]

most likely once jobs come out though, just by selecting jobs you will get a clear advantage in a role, and it will limit cross classing, soooo the advantage will be comparitively lower.

The way that last part was worded makes me think I might not be clear on what your thinking is here. But if I do understand you right, you are saying that Jobs will provide roles which will give a better advantage than the class that Job comes from in a role. However, due to it limiting the ability to cross-class, its advantage will be lower compared to super cross-classers that build a role. Am I reading you right?

If I am, then i disagree particularly with that last part. I think it will be subjective/situational. There will be some situations where diversity is more favored, but there will be others where a clear focus will be better, and then again there could also be situations where cross-classers and jobers (yea i said it, lol jobers) would work well together.

I did this earlier in the thread but I will restate it. This is the way I see it breaking down:

Normal GLA = Good Tank.
This will be good for more casual content, but might provide challenges to a person that wants to do Dungeons and what not.

Super Cross-Classing GLA = Good Tank but a lot more versatile.
These guys will be good for a lot a various content due to versatility but would probably fair better in things like Light Party dungeons (notice I am not saying low level or easy). These could be hard and require a lot more flexibility in the party members due to the limitation of 4 players. However, this does not mean they would not also be good in Full party content. I also believe super-cross classers will be the future of Low-manning content meant for more players. But this would not be due to them being so much more powerful than Jobs, but rather due to their VERSATILITY. The idea here is a jack of all trades (roles) but a master of none. This doesnt meant that they would be unaffective though. Here is a FFXI example:
You want to be a hybrid class so you chose Blue Mage. Blue Mage is a bad ass hybrid job, no arguing that. However, it doesnt compare to the sheer Nuking power or Black Mage, nor the sheer DDing capabilities of Samurai. So yes to powerful, yes to versatile, but still in any given role I'd guess about 90% as effective as a Job of similar role. This does not make them Broken nor gimp. They are still very powerful and versatile, but a Job will always be the best at A role.

Paladin GLA = THE Best Tank, but with little or no versatility.
Jobs will undoubtedly always be the best choice for a specific role. A super cross-classed GLA might still be a bad ass tank, but the Paladin will always be better at that role, IF that is all you need in a given situation. (Back to the example about a light party). In a light party of 3 super-cross classers and 1 Paladin, the Paladin will without a doubt be the best tank. However, that is all he/she wil be able to do and a light party or low-man situation might require more versatility due to the limitation/self-limitation of the situation. So Jobs = Master of a trade (role), but with no real ability outside of that.

No I'm not psychic, and Yoshi-P doesnt whisper to me in my dreams. However, the current direction of this game, and a few dev comments, and producers letters have more than hinted at this. I truly think that this is the general direction that clsses and jobs will take. Unfortunately, this does mean that 1 class alone and only 1 class will not be able to accomplish much. But you will either be able to cross-class or specialize in a Job. If they can ballance it right, it will likely just come down to a players personal choice. The last thing I want is that the Jobs end up making the cross-classers feel they HAVE to chose a Job. They did say that Full Party content will be tailored for Jobs, and that Light Party content would be tailored for Classes. If they can ballance it right though, I see no reason why it cant be mixed and matched according to what people want to do in a LS. I for instance only want to tank. I dont want to heal or DD or Nuke or buff/debuff. All I want to do is get hate and use defensive skills so I will definately be a Paladin. But I see no reason why I should only party with Jobers. You get a group of players to cover what needs to be covered (Job or no Job), and work a strategy around that.

[kukurumei]

No I'm not psychic, and Yoshi-P doesnt whisper to me in my dreams. However, the current direction of this game, and a few dev comments, and producers letters have more than hinted at this. I truly think that this is the general direction that clsses and jobs will take. Unfortunately, this does mean that 1 class alone and only 1 class will not be able to accomplish much. But you will either be able to cross-class or specialize in a Job. If they can ballance it right, it will likely just come down to a players personal choice. The last thing I want is that the Jobs end up making the cross-classers feel they HAVE to chose a Job. They did say that Full Party content will be tailored for Jobs, and that Light Party content would be tailored for Classes. If they can ballance it right though, I see no reason why it cant be mixed and matched according to what people want to do in a LS. I for instance only want to tank. I dont want to heal or DD or Nuke or buff/debuff. All I want to do is get hate and use defensive skills so I will definately be a Paladin. But I see no reason why I should only party with Jobers. You get a group of players to cover what needs to be covered (Job or no Job), and work a strategy around that.

Not only is it a high improbably to balance such a system, the developers themselves have shown they are not up to the task. Whenever you have more variables there is more to balance, because balance is essentially balancing one scenario vs another scenario, and well... more combinations, more scenarios.

You can give them all the fingers and toes to count with, it's not happening in any realistic world. That's one of the reasons it needed to change.

Secondly, no you can't have "I want to play my way". That's denotes a Single player game. That's how it is, and can't be change. The community aspect of it forces standardization, otherwise, you can't even battle monsters correctly.

You fight a monster for 10 minutes. you die. Another guys, comes in wacks it, you learn why...thus you becomes that character's clone. End of story. You are a winner or a loser. Having custom skills or play the way you want doesn't make you a winner. That's always been the point. You can choose to name yourself badasstank, walk and talk like badasstank, and have your own distinct badasstank skills. But you're not a badasstank. You're just a failure, because the winners work the system.

The illusion you can "Be what you want" is utterly and truly false, even more so in the armoury system, because it's so obvious how to abuse it.

[Kaizlu]

Isn't multiple classes with multiple skills for personal builds the sell point number 1 since beta?

And there is coming a job system for party roles, too
Wait up what skills a paladin can use and complain later

People don't like personal builds, I'm pretty sure more would be happy with a more "defined" job/class system.

Somewhat sad really.

[Amsai]

@kukurumei
You might be right about the dev team not being up to the challenge, but we shall see.

Also, I didnt mean for this to turn into a "You cant be a unique snowflake" discussion. That wasnt my point. So please lets not go there. I was simply talking about Class and Job cooperation.

As far as community standardization, you could be right to a certain degree. But this game is really........ different(the kindest word I could come up with).

As far as Jobs vs Classes, I think ballance can be achieved with the wierd system they have created. But lets say it cant for cooperative play between jobs and classes. Then that just means the focus will be ballancing them seprately (Light Party vs Full Party).

Then again maybe they do add jobs, and screw over the armoury system, and then the game is cancelled.

/em boards the Doomtrain!!!

[Physic]

Not only is it a high improbably to balance such a system, the developers themselves have shown they are not up to the task. Whenever you have more variables there is more to balance, because balance is essentially balancing one scenario vs another scenario, and well... more combinations, more scenarios.

You can give them all the fingers and toes to count with, it's not happening in any realistic world. That's one of the reasons it needed to change.

Secondly, no you can't have "I want to play my way". That's denotes a Single player game. That's how it is, and can't be change. The community aspect of it forces standardization, otherwise, you can't even battle monsters correctly.

You fight a monster for 10 minutes. you die. Another guys, comes in wacks it, you learn why...thus you becomes that character's clone. End of story. You are a winner or a loser. Having custom skills or play the way you want doesn't make you a winner. That's always been the point. You can choose to name yourself badasstank, walk and talk like badasstank, and have your own distinct badasstank skills. But you're not a badasstank. You're just a failure, because the winners work the system.

The illusion you can "Be what you want" is utterly and truly false, even more so in the armoury system, because it's so obvious how to abuse it.

not exactly, people will always follow people in any game, that doesnt mean they are right. What makes you a badasstank is how many different ways you can tank, and how effective you are at it.
If they made a class called tank, and it had access to every tanking ability in the game, but the user had to pick which skills for thier style, any combination would still be a tank, how well or how useful they would be is up to the skill at selecting and using those tank abilities.

far as balancing it, its been done, GW has more skills, and you can really be what you want, as long as its something thats in the game. There are super builds, but they are super for a specific purpose. there main prob is there are bad builds, and some people dont like that type of freedom, that is the freedom to make a really bad build.

the problem is being a gladiator doesnt equal being a bad ass tank, and a lot of people want it to.