Are cracks in the Armoury System beginning to surface?

[kukurumei]

First off, the OP is absolutely right. When this game was in development and they said they'd be using this new "classless class" system, I got worried. All I could think of was that it would eventually turn into everyone being required to have every class, and after a couple of years we have a bunch of All-In-One Super Classes running around. Well it turns out that I was some what right. I wouldnt say a person with all battle classes to 50 is an All-In-One Super Class, but they sure are way too over-powered. And look I have had to adopt abilities from every class just so I can effectively tank the new Dungeon.....yea I did it, but I didnt like it one damn bit. I want to feel PRIDE in my class, but I cant beause my native skills are so weak I have to borrow from lolPUG..... WTF is that about? If I wanted to be any other class I would have damn well ranked that one up instead of GLA.



EXACTLY!



THIS.



THIS..... again!!!



Well said, and you are right, it is silly.



Wrong. That was not the point at all. The point might have been to build your own role. However, I very greatly doubt it was to make optimal builds or that it ever should be. The point was to be able to be more versatile and rank up all classes on one character. So if you mix in a few extra abilities you become more versatile. If you mix in too many you become a jack of all trades and a master of none, NOT a master of all trades. And in fact while being more versatile, should be WEAKER LOL.




We are already starting to see the begining of this with them herding Con to be more white magey, and THM to be more black magey. And more class only abilities. I predict they will finally come to their senses and put some kind of reasonable restraints on cross-classing as well as (dare I say it O.O) redistribution of abilities: GLA more tankey(accomplice etc etc. now native to GLA). I have no problem with the cross-classing of abilities in general, but there is no reason why for instance THE tank class should have to hunt down his/her abilities. If I am a new player and I know basically what type of role i want to fill, I should be able to pick a class for that role. Then if I want to be more versatile, I can augment my role with cross-class abilities.

As for Classes vs. Jobs? They have already given us an idea about what it will be like.

Normal GLA = Good tank (solo/casual/light party content)
Uber Cross Classed GLA = Good Tank, but more versatile (Low-Man/Light Party Content) ex: Totorak
Paladin GLA = Best Tank, but little or no versatility (Full Party Content) ex: Darkhold

This is not to say that there will be no middle ground. I am sure there will also be situations where it might be good to have a mix of both classes and jobs.

Imagine this scenario: Full Party Dungeon, and an Insanely powerfull boss along with 2 mini-bosses that are very powerful as well. So you get a Paladin on the big boy with healer support, and a couple of very versatile Gladiators to tank each mini-boss. GLAs heal themselves and possibly other party members, and DDs/Nukers take out the mini-bosses one at a time. Then the GLAs switch to a more DD role and everyone takes out the Mega-Boss.

Not exactly. The armoury system suffered both from a conception standpoint and a execution standpoint. Both parts have a role to play in the mess. A double whammy for developers who couldn't see beyond the armoury concept.

One for making it harder to get right, and the 2nd part for failing to even make it viable. So both have to be argued kind of separately in that respect.

On thing that FF11 got right, and FF14 got wrong, was how it handle it. Not only because FF11 did class/subclass but also, you can only set it in town.

FF14 didn't learn from its big brother and reason out why that was a restriction very tightly bound(they were very reluctant to even use nomad moogles). The whole, change class, so skills, so armor less restriction, on the fly thing made the armoury system from a monster to a 8 headed-fire-breathing monster.

Not only couldn't developer predict which combination and what not was OPed, and Super OPed, but now that players could change it anywhere, anyway, was even more problematic. And then attaching Weapon skills to it making it a massive combination of balance problems.

I suspected when people starting point out faults developers go "Woopsie...didn't realize I had to balance 10000 different skill combinations, thought they were balanced already" thus epic failure that they didn't even try to touch so they could make a new system easier on themselves.

Not only does FF14 need a system that plays nice for it's players, but also that let's developers easily manage it in the long run. Armoury was neither of those.

[Val_Rhys]

@ Amsai: I could not agree with you more.

[Physic]

ehhh problem is without armory, this game will be even less entertaining. The other thing is, some of these skills shouldnt be on glad, or else glad will have 0 versatility at all, the same with marauder and pug. Accomplise is a needed skill for pug because half of our attack skills are based around getting hate. Defender is needed for Marauder because mrd is supposed to be getting hit by like 3 monsters at once, and be able to survive it. The fact that a gld jacking these skills is a better tank is logical, but taking them out of the jobs they are native to are not. Sooo all they could really do is nerf them or limit them to the main class, but lets be honest that will make your glads a lot weaker.

I think the thing is, its not so much that glad is op vs other jobs with these skills, (after all, if a mrd was tanking he would borrow gld skills) but rather that it would take someone a long time to get the skills. There are a number of solutions to this, but its too late for a lot of them without big changes.

[Mudd]

I only read about half of your post to be honest, but hasn't this been pretty obvious since the beginning that there would be a difference in the ability of a player who played only one class as opposed to one who played multiple, when it came to doing certain things? Hell, that was part of the excuse for Fatigue if I'm not mistaken; to make us diversify ourselves by leveling multiple classes.

I don't consider it a problem, while I do understand. If you can put in the hours, I don't see why you shouldn't be aloud to be more efficient. You can't think of it as PENALIZING the players who can't put in the hours though...
If you put it that way it just sounds so unfair, but that's not what it is at all. It's completely fair. They aren't forcefully taking anything away from anyone.
If you can't put in 100 hours, and can only put in 5, you need to come to accept that while still capable you might not be THE BEST, and just make do with what you have. I mean, who comes into an MMO, knowing what an MMO is, expecting to be the best on the server when they can barely play?

Nobody.

Anyways, I say just wait for Jobs to be implemented and see what happens.
Ive been away for a while so I barely remember the details regarding them but if I remember correctly it might serve as a form of balance.

[MrKupo]

I may not be in too much authority to say anything here (considering my ranks) but conceptually I disagree. There were some very good points about classes only being effective with the use of other classes, but as the OP said, if you are skilled enough, you can handle the solo class. What the Armoury system does, on the other hand, is open up a crap load of customization to fit each players individual play style.

What I mean by this is, for example, if a Gladiator player wanted to be able to cast cure on himself and maybe periodically cast stoneskin on himself, he wouldn't need to level Conjurer up to 50 to do so. All you need is a few levels before you get those spells. What I think more casual players will do is ultimately look up their favorite combinations of skills among all the classes and level up to get those at the very minimum. I have no plans to level up Conjurer past 16, because all I want are the buffs.

[Kiote]

What the OP describes is neither a crack nor a problem. It's by design and completely reasonable. If you level every Class you will be more powerful than people who level only one class.

Complaining people who cross class are more powerful is the equivalent to people complaining that no one wanted to party with them in FFXI cause they didn't have a sub job leveled..

[Kiote]

The point of the armoury system was never to make any class serve a clearly defined role. It was, in fact, designed to push player into playing multiple classes and NOT play a single class to cap. They stated from day one when the game was first announced that Players were to build there own Character by leveling across all classes and adopting the necessarily abilities to do what they want. No one every said anything about hyper focusing on a single classes and being powerful. The Armoury system was design to make people who level across multiple classes more powerful. To call this a flaw in the system is like complaining chicken taste like chicken.

If a player wants to be an effective tank they will have to level PGL and MRD.. to lvl 15. Or, they can level LNC and MRD to level 15 or CON and PGL to 15. There are so many options and varieties of ways to build a specific Party Role and none of them require any extensive work in more than one class. And the BASIC abilities you need from another class to optimize your role can be aqured in less than an hour. If you bought this game and for even one minute thought you could enjoy it by playing only a single class your out of your mind. At no point in time was it even suggested that this game was a One class to cap game.

Worse yet, you are complaining about the diversity in the class system when you have already been given into with the Job system. The job system will hold your hand and tell you how to play your class for you and you wont have to put for any effort to build something of your own choosing. It will tell you your role in a party and give you all the nessisary abilities to do it adequately. Then when all is said and done you and your ONE class with your ONE job can sit around and be bored while the rest of us continue to play while new content is developed.

[Arkine]

Hm... I can see what the OP is talking about, and personally while I don't entirely like the armory system and how just being a GLA no matter how long you play a GLA you'll still be inferior to a GLA that has CON/THM/MRD/PUG @50 I can't think of a way to remedy this that won't result in /wrists.

How I see it.

2 Karate practitioners Jack and Mike.

Jack got a Blue belt in karate, then went ahead and took up Muy-thai a Judo.

Jack now is good at karate, and has more grappling techniques and superior kicks from his other arts and that makes perfect sense. (Lets say KRT50 JUD30 THI30)

Mike stuck with karate, and kept at it. logically, when it comes to karate, Mike should be better than jack, despite not being as versatile, Mike should now be a black belt, thus being better at karate than Jack even though he doesn't have any judo and muy-thai moves, his karate moves should be better than Jack's. Also makes sense. (Basicly hes KRT60)

However, this isn't the case here, and both are capped at brown (KRT50) thus putting Mike at a disadvantage.

Now to make my theory a reality, that requires that we get a set amount of levels (exactly like attribute points for physical levels) this keeping Jack @ KRT50/JUD30/THI30 and letting Mike advance at karate to KRT60.

Jack got to do the arts he liked, and Mike wasn't forced to do arts he didn't like to be good enough to stand toe to toe with Jack.

Another example is FFXI's crafting system: you can only get 1 craft to 100, and the rest are locked at 60, thus stopping people from being the best at everything, which nobody had issues with.

How's that?

[Physic]

Hm... I can see what the OP is talking about, and personally while I don't entirely like the armory system and how just being a GLA no matter how long you play a GLA you'll still be inferior to a GLA that has CON/THM/MRD/PUG @50 I can't think of a way to remedy this that won't result in /wrists.

How I see it.

2 Karate practitioners Jack and Mike.

Jack got a Blue belt in karate, then went ahead and took up Muy-thai a Judo.

Jack now is good at karate, and has more grappling techniques and superior kicks from his other arts and that makes perfect sense. (Lets say KRT50 JUD30 THI30)

Mike stuck with karate, and kept at it. logically, when it comes to karate, Mike should be better than jack, despite not being as versatile, Mike should now be a black belt, thus being better at karate than Jack even though he doesn't have any judo and muy-thai moves, his karate moves should be better than Jack's. Also makes sense. (Basicly hes KRT60)

However, this isn't the case here, and both are capped at brown (KRT50) thus putting Mike at a disadvantage.

Now to make my theory a reality, that requires that we get a set amount of levels (exactly like attribute points for physical levels) this keeping Jack @ KRT50/JUD30/THI30 and letting Mike advance at karate to KRT60.

Jack got to do the arts he liked, and Mike wasn't forced to do arts he didn't like to be good enough to stand toe to toe with Jack.

Another example is FFXI's crafting system: you can only get 1 craft to 100, and the rest are locked at 60, thus stopping people from being the best at everything, which nobody had issues with.

How's that?

in you example, both people are already black belts, and thats the problem. once you hit the cap of skill in a certain thing, studying other things can in fact help your overall performance in the thing you mastered. The problem is, this is a game not real life, while the games representation is totally accurate, people dont want to have to level up a lot of different classes. And normally they dont, but now that you have high end content, where they set the challenge probably at some one who has at least 1 50, and a bunch of classes at 20+, maybe another one at 40, you can see a problem. I will say this, the truth is you can get by with a well balanced team of people just using their main jobs skills, HOWEVER, they will have to be highly skilled.

What some one who has a lot of jobs, and is highly skilled has, is all that skill usable on multiple levels, he knows when to absorb, when to dodge, how to use quick, the advantages of fast cast blah blah blah. Each person could probably do what he is doing better on thier main jobs, but it would require high skills from everyone, and team work.

most likely once jobs come out though, just by selecting jobs you will get a clear advantage in a role, and it will limit cross classing, soooo the advantage will be comparitively lower.

[Amsai]

most likely once jobs come out though, just by selecting jobs you will get a clear advantage in a role, and it will limit cross classing, soooo the advantage will be comparitively lower.

The way that last part was worded makes me think I might not be clear on what your thinking is here. But if I do understand you right, you are saying that Jobs will provide roles which will give a better advantage than the class that Job comes from in a role. However, due to it limiting the ability to cross-class, its advantage will be lower compared to super cross-classers that build a role. Am I reading you right?

If I am, then i disagree particularly with that last part. I think it will be subjective/situational. There will be some situations where diversity is more favored, but there will be others where a clear focus will be better, and then again there could also be situations where cross-classers and jobers (yea i said it, lol jobers) would work well together.

I did this earlier in the thread but I will restate it. This is the way I see it breaking down:

Normal GLA = Good Tank.
This will be good for more casual content, but might provide challenges to a person that wants to do Dungeons and what not.

Super Cross-Classing GLA = Good Tank but a lot more versatile.
These guys will be good for a lot a various content due to versatility but would probably fair better in things like Light Party dungeons (notice I am not saying low level or easy). These could be hard and require a lot more flexibility in the party members due to the limitation of 4 players. However, this does not mean they would not also be good in Full party content. I also believe super-cross classers will be the future of Low-manning content meant for more players. But this would not be due to them being so much more powerful than Jobs, but rather due to their VERSATILITY. The idea here is a jack of all trades (roles) but a master of none. This doesnt meant that they would be unaffective though. Here is a FFXI example:
You want to be a hybrid class so you chose Blue Mage. Blue Mage is a bad ass hybrid job, no arguing that. However, it doesnt compare to the sheer Nuking power or Black Mage, nor the sheer DDing capabilities of Samurai. So yes to powerful, yes to versatile, but still in any given role I'd guess about 90% as effective as a Job of similar role. This does not make them Broken nor gimp. They are still very powerful and versatile, but a Job will always be the best at A role.

Paladin GLA = THE Best Tank, but with little or no versatility.
Jobs will undoubtedly always be the best choice for a specific role. A super cross-classed GLA might still be a bad ass tank, but the Paladin will always be better at that role, IF that is all you need in a given situation. (Back to the example about a light party). In a light party of 3 super-cross classers and 1 Paladin, the Paladin will without a doubt be the best tank. However, that is all he/she wil be able to do and a light party or low-man situation might require more versatility due to the limitation/self-limitation of the situation. So Jobs = Master of a trade (role), but with no real ability outside of that.

No I'm not psychic, and Yoshi-P doesnt whisper to me in my dreams. However, the current direction of this game, and a few dev comments, and producers letters have more than hinted at this. I truly think that this is the general direction that clsses and jobs will take. Unfortunately, this does mean that 1 class alone and only 1 class will not be able to accomplish much. But you will either be able to cross-class or specialize in a Job. If they can ballance it right, it will likely just come down to a players personal choice. The last thing I want is that the Jobs end up making the cross-classers feel they HAVE to chose a Job. They did say that Full Party content will be tailored for Jobs, and that Light Party content would be tailored for Classes. If they can ballance it right though, I see no reason why it cant be mixed and matched according to what people want to do in a LS. I for instance only want to tank. I dont want to heal or DD or Nuke or buff/debuff. All I want to do is get hate and use defensive skills so I will definately be a Paladin. But I see no reason why I should only party with Jobers. You get a group of players to cover what needs to be covered (Job or no Job), and work a strategy around that.