Best standard WAR opener as MT?

[Sibyll]

Snip

Thanks for the link and the info.

From watching that video I could tell that the Paladin was delaying his Rage of Halone combo. While I can't see what the DPS are doing specifically, I'd have to only guess they are also holding back DPS to allow aggro to be locked in with Skull Sunder. I'm mostly basing this off the fact that the threat in my raid spikes up a hell of a lot faster in my raid during those first few GCDs. While I won't argue that speccing DPS accessories and 30 Strength on your Warrior can boast some very nice numbers, it's questionable to say that doing this opening is optimal if it means your DPS have to hold back for 2 extra GCDs so that you can squeeze out a slightly more optimal DPS rotation. I did watch some of Xeno's guide (I plan to finish when I get a chance) and it is clearly a very well thought out Warrior build, but to advertise that as a standard build/opener is very dubious.

But the more curious question is what would the effect be on your overall DPS for a fight between doing SE>BB and a BB>SE opener. It was mentioned by a poster that you spike 500 DPS, but who cares what you spike. At the end of the day your overall DPS for the instance is what really matters and I'd venture to guess that the order of your opener isn't going to effect your DPS that much in 12+ minute FCoB fight. If you have an actual comparison though, I'd really be interested to see.

[SpookyGhost]

More damage in opener with buffs = More DPS overall. Thus, SE -> BB is optimal damage. SE->BB->BB generates more overall enmity than BB->SE->BB due to both BBs being buffed by Maim and SE, whereas only one of them is buffed for the second. If you don't lose hate starting with SE, SE is optimal. If you do, use BB. It doesn't really matter, I don't honestly care enough to continue this. I'd just like to recommend people try SE first with buffs and if they aren't losing aggro to use it, as it is the better option as long as you meet that one stipulation. A PLD holding back one RoH so that a WAR can get a larger enmity threshold to rotate SE -> SP more often is something I think is fine. I don't know what "burst" DPS people are losing aggro to, but I'd be more than happy to hear what the rotation is for the DPS that's pulling. I have a feeling Quelling Strikes isn't involved, but if it is then I'm all ears.

[Ditto]

Thanks for the link and the info.

From watching that video I could tell that the Paladin was delaying his Rage of Halone combo. While I can't see what the DPS are doing specifically, I'd have to only guess they are also holding back DPS to allow aggro to be locked in with Skull Sunder. I'm mostly basing this off the fact that the threat in my raid spikes up a hell of a lot faster in my raid during those first few GCDs. While I won't argue that speccing DPS accessories and 30 Strength on your Warrior can boast some very nice numbers, it's questionable to say that doing this opening is optimal if it means your DPS have to hold back for 2 extra GCDs so that you can squeeze out a slightly more optimal DPS rotation. I did watch some of Xeno's guide (I plan to finish when I get a chance) and it is clearly a very well thought out Warrior build, but to advertise that as a standard build/opener is very dubious.

But the more curious question is what would the effect be on your overall DPS for a fight between doing SE>BB and a BB>SE opener. It was mentioned by a poster that you spike 500 DPS, but who cares what you spike. At the end of the day your overall DPS for the instance is what really matters and I'd venture to guess that the order of your opener isn't going to effect your DPS that much in 12+ minute FCoB fight. If you have an actual comparison though, I'd really be interested to see.

I have never once lost aggro with that opener, even against DPS that are ridiculously geared. (A Nexus Bard using an potion even. They come close, but not close enough to take the mob from me before skulls under happens)

And the spike damage does matter on the initial pull, where as even you yourself said, damage from everyone can spike up really fast on those first few GCD's. Spike damage from a Tank, a Warrior nonetheless can generate enough aggro to maintain threat without needing to butchers block immediately. That spike damage from the opener isn't just from the first few GCD's, mind you.

The increased enmity from your first skill be it tomahawk or overpower, on top of that damage you'll be doing throughout the opener, you should not be losing aggro. If you are, you're lacking in something compared to the rest of the group.

But really, just do whatever you're comfortable with yourself, same with everyone else. If BB'ing Before storms is how you prefer it, then do it, so long as you're managing to keep the boss on you it's fine. That opener is more of an advanced opener, and you have to really know what you're doing when you're doing it, so it isn't for everyone.

[melflomil]

I usually do infuriate > tomahawk > heavy swing > skull sunder > butchers block (to establish some agro) > heavy swing > Maim > unchained > internal release > storms eye > berserk (this is when i begin pull away. Can even grab hate off a paladin without provoke and be miles ahead of them in hate) > heavy swing > skull sunder > butchers block > fracture > heavy swing > skull sunder > butcher block and inner beast to finish.

Your aggro would be about at 100% obviously but people with 125 weapons, their agro bars will be at like 5% lol the paladin will probably be at 40-50% if they are in shield of oath.

[Sibyll]

If you are, you're lacking in something compared to the rest of the group

Do you use Tanking Accessories, DPS Accessories or i90 Ruby? Are you 30 in Strength or 30 in Vitality?

It's a little pretentious to say that it's an advanced opener. There isn't really a whole lot you can screw up on a rotation and the rotation isn't the only variable present here, hence why I'm trying to get a little more information on whether it works with full vitality gear. After all, enmity generation scales with strength.

Edit: I just had one of the DPS from the static I'm in do their normal open on a dummy doing the SE>BB opening, they didn't use Quelling Strikes, both of us were in comparable ilvl gear (his slightly higher), and I was in standard tank gear with 30 Vitality and they weren't even half my threat. I stand corrected.

[kensatsu]

here is a rotation that don't boost agro but optimize the damage but i don't often have loosing agro problem even by using this, depending the situation and the fight off course, don't do that on T9 as main tank XD where you have to keep you alive by doing inner beast when you have to.

But it's steel good to many fight
Toma hawk, Butcher combo, blood bath, fracture, then storm eyes combo (or the other to get less damage), another butcher combo, i have the stacks, then i do unchained, internal release, fracture, bersek, storm eyes combo, storm eyes combo again, i have the stack then i use inner beast, influrate, inner beast, pacification
(btw when you are dpsing the same boss a other tank is MT, doing exactly that but replace all the butcher combo, by storm eyes combo)
and why ? storm eyes and inner beast is the most damaging skill of the war, also never burst without defiance even if you are dpsing as off tank

btw on the discussion below you can realy take the advantage of have dps ring or i90 ruby +force melded by doing that
also i think even i love play in force with my war, butcher combo still the first thing to do after a pull

[Ditto]

Do you use Tanking Accessories, DPS Accessories or i90 Ruby? Are you 30 in Strength or 30 in Vitality?

It's a little pretentious to say that it's an advanced opener. There isn't really a whole lot you can screw up on a rotation and the rotation isn't the only variable present here, hence why I'm trying to get a little more information on whether it works with full vitality gear. After all, enmity generation scales with strength.

Edit: I just had one of the DPS from the static I'm in do their normal open on a dummy doing the SE>BB opening, they didn't use Quelling Strikes, both of us were in comparable ilvl gear (his slightly higher), and I was in standard tank gear with 30 Vitality and they weren't even half my threat. I stand corrected.

I cant afford those crafted Strength accessories, so I stick with the standard vitality stuff. I'm also 30 Vit.

Also, I call it advanced because it's as advanced as weaving skills gets for a Warrior. You screw something up while doing it and it's possible you will lose aggro to someone. It can be used as more than just an opener as well, and be used throughout the whole fight every time unchained comes up as a burst. Even as the offtank during burn phases, though it'd probably be a good idea to swap our butchers block for a second storm, else you will probably rip off of the MT with that single butchers block.

Honestly I don't know if I'd even call it a 'rotation' at this point either, it's more of a burst opener.

[Sibyll]

snip

Well my most recent reference point is currently T12 picking up the adds. If I do anything less than a combo'd BB with at least Berserk and my DPS will rip aggro from me. And yea, it's very difficult to refer to anything a warrior does as a rotation, which is why I like it more than PLD. To be honest, I was really surprised how far ahead on the threat table I was. I had tried this opener back in maybe 2.1 or even before as there is obvious synergy in the skills, but I recall having aggro issues so just scrapped it as impractical.

If you spirit bind i70 and i90 gear yourself you can get the materia pretty cheap, but you'd need to be able to craft the spirit bond gear yourself for it to be practical. With the new i120/130 gear I was considering using a mix of DPS and Vit gear to get the same effect as the i90 crafted. The overall strength and vit gained I'd think would be higher, and a lot of the new Vit gear actually has Crit and Det on it. I need to actually get a spread sheet together to look at. My only concern is that I think on FCoB my healers would prefer a deeper health pool to some extra self heals and negligible parry reduction. However, I'm open to more insight on this if you have any.

[kensatsu]

your point is good here, with adds even on T7 i was doing a lot butcher, i even stack the rage and the 2 first skill of the butcher combo before the adds start to spawn, then i can pull directly with butcher, stun, inner beast, then a second butcher combo.
i din't got to have to use berserk on these, but i usualy stack skill and rage for adds spawn on coil.

DPS tend to burst directly these adds and healer tend also to heal when them spawn, you have to put a lot of aggro, it's not the same than pull a boss ^^

Still not see T12 to see if it's effective to do that way but i think it's the best way to pull a add (stack the combo and pull with butcher directly)

the use of the mix of the accesory can be good if your healer can heal, it's right, you need to test, if you die by using these you can switch accesories back, you need a lot of parry to have a better rate, if you have 500 it's still a good rate
when 110 craft accesories will be added it will be a better option, but 4 star craft is a pain, so expensive T_T

[Xenosys]

I've been doing ...

(pre-pull Infuriate > Unchained > Berserk) > Tomahawk > HS > IR > Maim > Brutal Swing > SE > HS > SS > BB > IB > Fracture (Pacification)

Typically it holds against anything minus a PLD critting RoH. Definitely higher damage than say Tomahawk > BB combo > BB combo, but the part up to the second HS is where aggro can be tricky against optimal BRD/PLD/DRG/BLM openers, which case I've been using Second Wind after SE for an aggro burst. Is there something that's more damage with possible other benefits?

Hey Sleigh! A good standard opener would look something like this: Infuriate> Overpower/Tomahawk> Unchained> Heavy Swing> Blood Bath> Maim> Internal Release> Berserk> Storms Eye> Heavy Swing> Skull Sunder> Butcher's Block> Fracture> Heavy Swing> Inner Beast> Maim> Storm's Eye> Pacification Panda

Depending on your ping you may not be able to squeeze in "Internal Release" and "Berserk" back to back. So if thats the case just weave in "Internal Release" after Storm's Eye. Also Youll want to start with Overpower whenever possible or if you DPS severely out gear you just use an additional Overpower at the beginning of the combo so you wont have to worry about aggro issues.

I use this opener all the time with no issues of losing threat. Your pld co-tank should riot blade on the first combo then feel free to spam RoH the entire fight. If dps happen to pull by not using quelling let them die then laugh at them because that is dps being bad. Not you. It is not an Epeen contest with aggro. It it about the group as a whole maximizing their opener.

My dps go extremely hard right at the start of every fight, so I know this opener is solid and will not cause any aggro issues. Also a lot of people forget that activating Buffs also draws aggro and while it is minimal it does add up! However I will say this, and this is very important! Depending on you connection i would recommend a minimum of 410 Skill Speed to complete this opener without any issues. I usually have a bit more but 410 is a "safe" number if you cant get fully melded I90 ruby crafted