Best standard WAR opener as MT?

[Akamon]

For the people suggesting Storm's Eye Combo before BB combo: Are your DPS not attacking the boss? I find it hard to believe you wouldn't lose threat unless you grossly out gear the DPS or the DPS are just bad at their class.

I do: Infuriate->Tomahawk->Brutal Swing->Heavy Swing->Unchained->Skull Sunder->Berserk->Butchers Block->Internal Release->Heavy Swing->Maim->Storm's Eye (or Path)->Inner Beast.

the only times people have come close to ripping hate is when i experience bag lag spikes (which has been happening quite often : (((). and/or a PLD OT on Sword spamming combos and NINs maybe come close cause whatever their openers are can be very strong sometimes. though, still, with good enough gear, the damage you do with Storm's Eye should be enough to hold hate from anyone, and once you get your first BB combo off with all those buffs / debuffs up, you'll be miles ahead of everyone.

[Sibyll]

No it's not a matter of dps being bad. With enough gear it's perfectly viable to start with storms eye. As u only need to be in front of every one. Doesn't matter how much and after the eye u do ur butchers block combo which puts u massively in front. If ur unsure about holding hate at first then using butchers block combo is viable, but when looking for the optimal opener it's with storms eye first.

With enough gear, as in you are out gearing your DPS? Yea you can do that. If the DPS are in gear comparable to you then you will either lose threat or the DPS will have to interrupt their rotation so they don't pull.

How is Storm's Eye an optimal opener to Butcher's Block? What exactly are we optimizing?

[Ditto]

With enough gear, as in you are out gearing your DPS? Yea you can do that. If the DPS are in gear comparable to you then you will either lose threat or the DPS will have to interrupt their rotation so they don't pull.

How is Storm's Eye an optimal opener to Butcher's Block? What exactly are we optimizing?

Assuming you're doing the opener I mentioned, your buffs are what keep you from losing threat. Your DPS can easily spike to 500 with that opener, if another DPS tears off of you they have to be going in hard while at the same time, out gearing you hard. By the time anyone ever comes close to taking threat, skull sunder alone takes it all back before they even get a chance to pull.

Your enmity generating skills aren't the only skills that generate threat.

[RhazeCain]

Hmm, an interesting topic, unlike most threads on this board.. Let's see if can keep it going. =)

How is Storm's Eye an optimal opener to Butcher's Block? What exactly are we optimizing?

"Optimal" = maximizing both enmity and damage. Measured as a total at end of "opener" sequence. Requirement during sequence that it constantly maintain more enmity than high damage opening sequences of other classes of equivalent gear level.

Sounds like people have been following that already, more or less, so I just try to articulate it a bit.

Now 2 interesting points I heard already:
A) First combo SE vs. BB: If assume that both are going to be in your opener anyway, then obviously SE->BB will be higher total enmity AND damage due to maim and SE buffing the BB combo ... IF AND ONLY IF the sequence reliably stays ahead of DPS enmity. To me, the last part is a question mark: worth it if can make it work, but I'm not sold yet.
B) Overpower vs. Tomahawk to start: A previous poster mentioned 5x and 3x enmity multipliers -- I'd like to see a source on that. Regardless though, every measurement I've seen and my own experience say that Overpower is a considerably higher enmity multiplier than Tomahawk.
The drawback of Overpower is the shorter range. Assuming Tomahawk used at max range, that means that your next weaponskill (Heavy Swing probably) comes "later" in relation to your being in melee range. Like, you Overpower, then enemy comes to you, then you wait for GCD. With Tomahawk, more or all of the GCD is spent in the enemy coming to you. So, while Overpower is clearly the higher enmity ability, the ~1 sec time difference makes the comparison result unclear in my mind.

[Sibyll]

Hmm, an interesting topic, unlike most threads on this board.. Let's see if can keep it going. =)

Thank you for clarifying.

On your points:

A) I am with you on the not being sold part. The bonus from Defiance isn't going to generate enough threat on your Maim and Storm's Eye, even with Unchained and Berserk. A DPS in comparable, or better, gear will rip threat if they are using cooldowns and maximizing their DPS. However, DPS aside what about the Paladin with Fight or Flight doing RoH? Even in Sword Oath RoH generates an appreciable amount of threat.

B) I agree just from the numbers that Overpower is the winner in the enmity department. However, as you mentioned I just assume use Tomahawk as my GCD finish around when I get into range for my Heavy Swing.

[Sleigh]

In testing the SE combo first, no pre-buff openers, I can't keep hate off of roughly equally geared BRD/BLM until the BB, losing hate around the time of SE and not getting it back for a few GCDs. Against a STR Sword Oath PLD there's just no way, the PLD will be tanking until BB. Period. It definitely looks to be about max sustained aggro and damage but I gotta agree with the two above me, it doesn't have me convinced from what I tried of it. Even Unchained + Berserk Tomahawk > SE combo can get hairy on threat and that's with a super charged Tomahawk to carry the aggro.

Would be great for PUGs though, who aren't doing 100% of a class's capabilities.

[Thistledown]

I Infuriate>tomahawk (unchained)>HS(berserk)>skull sunder (internal release)>butcher's block.

Anything else that follows it would be situational. In Titan EX I'd probably pop SP afterward follows immediately by IB to mitigate the first mountain buster. I think I fit in two more gcd before pacification kicks in. So that's going to be Fracture (I know I know) and Heavy Swing or something.

I'm still learning but I don't feel comfortable not opening with BB combo.

[SpookyGhost]

A

People seem to know Xeno on these forums, so I'll just share this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EesAvfgSmtA (this is with Ruby accessories, but note the lead he has)

The aggro you generate will not be overshot by a DPS, even with a gear disparity. Back in 2.3, I had a friend who was HA + Sold geared with an i110 weapon (from 2.2), meanwhile I had a i90 Bravura Zenith and an NQ Noct Chest from the start of 2.2 (skipped that patch almost entirely). I never lost hate to him with my opener, and he didn't even use Quelling. If you're against the idea or think it sounds too good to be true, you can always test it yourself. Ditto's correction of the rotation I posted is the one you should be trying out as it will generate the most threat, though if you're super paranoid you can pre-pop Unchained to go with your Tomahawk/OP, or directly after it in place of Brutal Swing and move Brutal Swing to after Heavy Swing.

B

Either is fine, sometimes pulling with OP can be risky if Foes is up as you have to go past the aggro range of the enemy to use OP vs Tomahawk which can be used as soon as you enter aggro range.

tests

With no offensive buffs, you will definitely lose hate unless you outgear the DPS by quite a bit or are wearing full i110/i120/i130 STR accessories (even then it's pretty risky). With buffs, you won't lose hate unless THEY outgear you by... a really, really, reaaaally large margin. If you want to run another test, use Ditto's rotation and see if you lose aggro. If you don't, opening with SE is optimal. If you do, then opening with BB is optimal. I've personally never lost hate with that rotation against even the most balls to the wall DPS, but I'd love to see more people trying it out and seeing if it works for them.

wurds

If you want to avoid only having 2 GCDs after using 2 combos and an IB, use your CDs like this:

Infuriate -> Tomahawk -> Brutal Swing -> HS -> Unchained -> X -> Zerk -> X -> IR -> 2nd combo -> IB -> 3rd combo. Also Brutal Swing whenever it's off CD.

With enough SS (390+) you can fit in a Fracture before the IB, but if you're not worried about that just make sure you Zerk after the 2nd hit of your combo, that way you can fit in 3 + 1 IB.

[Raylan]

To be honost, opening with a combo to get storm's eye up is a really bad idea in Final Coil unless you tell your DPS to hold out for a bit.

as a Warrior currently progressing on T13 and surrounded by great dps players with i130 weapons this doesn't fly. Ofcourse getting the most out of your dps and rotation is great but we are there to tank and let the real dpsers pull the numbers. When you've established enough enmity then worry about your optimal rotation.

Don't forget about those cooldowns and weaving em through your skills.

[LichKaiser]

The only good way to zerk w/o the risk of dps or ot will steal aggro at opening is begin with a tomahawak+BB combo. Then build dps and increase aggro with the zerk tactic:
Tomahawk-BB combo->SE combo(with unchained bfore of SS and barserk bfore of s.eye)->x2 BB combo.
I can say no matter what u do if u start with a SE combo all group will steal aggro.
Xeno is a gr8 war but still his dps w8 to bust dps wen he start. Mine do not w8. If u play with pugs or with dps that busrt theyr dps at start u better do a BB combo.
Say to ur dps to w8 coz u need to maximize ur dps as tank is soo orible and nosense idea.