Nin TP Increase: Too Much?

[treuhavik]

People have also said all 3 melee are rather close in damage, with the order of Mnk > Nin > Drg still.

Now, they are all more on an even playing field.

^This.^ The balance is real. I picked up Diamond weapons for my MNK(i113), NIN(i114) and DRG(i111) yesterday and...damn. They're all within 5-15 DPS of one another(granted they're similarly geared). NIN - 485, MNK - 480, DRG - 465 (It's so hard to choose just one!). The TP nerf on NIN plays a large part in this, you run dry just as quickly now as a MNK or DRG so, no, it's not "too much", the game has just finally been balanced.

[DakenBrunel]

In fairness, a party of NIN/NIN would offer a solution to this "TP starvation". The other melee composition offers no such thing. Had NIN's TP not been brought down, then min/max parties will still take NIN/MNK over DRG. Now, they are all more on an even playing field.

Not really. Even playing field would be NIN/MNK, NIN/DRG, or DRG/MNK composition working. Dragon kick + traited mantra is seriously a part of the reason why people can clear content so fast.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with some classes being more TP efficient than others. I feel like some people in this game want every class to function the same way, which definitely doesn't float for me.

^This.^ The balance is real. I picked up Diamond weapons for my MNK(i113), NIN(i114) and DRG(i111) yesterday and...damn. They're all within 5-15 DPS of one another(granted they're similarly geared). NIN - 485, MNK - 480, DRG - 465 (It's so hard to choose just one!). The TP nerf on NIN plays a large part in this, you run dry just as quickly now as a MNK or DRG so, no, it's not "too much", the game has just finally been balanced.

Except its not. Have you seen a push group without a monk? Because I have not. Sure you could argue all the pushing is done now, and that the Dragoon was pre-buff, but it still doesnt change the fact that Monk is OP and everyone knows it.

Yoshi-P said it himself that Nin was supposed to be a highly rewarding job. It is true that people pushed Ninja to its limits. The damage is not the issue here. The TP nerf is the not the issue here. It's exactly like Aether said in the original post. The TP nerf was not placed correctly. The bread and butter combo for ninja shouldn't have been hit. The 123 combo should only be used after dots are applied and dancing edge or storms is up. If anything the TP hit should go to shadowfang or dancing edge.

[treuhavik]

Have you seen a push group without a monk? Because I have not. Sure you could argue all the pushing is done now, and that the Dragoon was pre-buff, but it still doesnt change the fact that Monk is OP and everyone knows it.

This is a flimsy argument. We haven't seen a 'first-group' clear without MNK because DRG was gimped and NIN didn't exist. Yeah, Dragon Kick is awesome but so is pushing the entire party's damage up, ending the encounter faster, thereby mitigating damage taken - the same reason tanks push their DPS. That's exactly what DRG and NIN do, except now DRG can actually survive an entire fight and people have NIN @ Lv50.

I'll admit, I haven't been world first for anything, I'm still on T9, but this is what I imagine happening. "Oh no! We don't have a MNK for INT down. Guess we'll have to use a smidge more MP. Bard, get that ballad rolling, your DPS can be made up by this kick-ass DRG we brought."

Also, if we don't see a 'first-group' using NIN or DRG soon, it's more likely because all these groups by now have career MNKs.

MNK is not overpowered. No one it talking about it and every time someone mentions the idea, they get laughed out of the thread. DRG and NIN have synergy with other jobs, MNK does not, therefore it needs to be self-reliant. This is why it has slightly higher damage and utilities like mantra and dragon kick effect.

[Vodomir]

This is a flimsy argument. We haven't seen a 'first-group' clear without MNK because DRG was gimped and NIN didn't exist. Yeah, Dragon Kick is awesome but so is pushing the entire party's damage up, ending the encounter faster, thereby mitigating damage taken - the same reason tanks push their DPS. That's exactly what DRG and NIN do, except now DRG can actually survive an entire fight and people have NIN @ Lv50.

There's some utter misconception in your post though, as DK is not primarily used to reduce overall DMG taken, but to reduce certain unavoidable damage spikes, so people don't need to be geared as much to survive those spikes (thus allowing for progression at an earlier stage as opposed to not bringing a MNK and having to gear up first). These damage spikes cannot be mitigated by ending the encounter faster.

I'll admit, I haven't been world first for anything, I'm still on T9, but this is what I imagine happening. "Oh no! We don't have a MNK for INT down. Guess we'll have to use a smidge more MP. Bard, get that ballad rolling, your DPS can be made up by this kick-ass DRG we brought."

All the MP in the world won't be enough if your group isn't able to survive that one big hit.

MNK is not overpowered. No one it talking about it and every time someone mentions the idea, they get laughed out of the thread. DRG and NIN have synergy with other jobs, MNK does not, therefore it needs to be self-reliant. This is why it has slightly higher damage and utilities like mantra and dragon kick effect.

Monk actually stacks quite well with itself, that's why MNK/MNK is a win-win-situation (and you get double the uptime on MNK mantra).

[DakenBrunel]

-Snip-

MNK is not overpowered. No one it talking about it and every time someone mentions the idea, they get laughed out of the thread. DRG and NIN have synergy with other jobs, MNK does not, therefore it needs to be self-reliant. This is why it has slightly higher damage and utilities like mantra and dragon kick effect.

I don't mean to be rude, but what exactly do you think synergy is? Monks have plenty of synergy, but just not with other DPS.

[treuhavik]

There's some utter misconception in your post though, as DK is not primarily used to reduce overall DMG taken, but to reduce certain unavoidable damage spikes, so people don't need to be geared as much to survive those spikes (thus allowing for progression at an earlier stage as opposed to not bringing a MNK and having to gear up first). These damage spikes cannot be mitigated by ending the encounter faster.

You're right in that ending the encounter wouldn't help in the situation you describe. I guess I should've added that as an aside. The dialogue I added better describes my point.

All the MP in the world won't be enough if your group isn't able to survive that one big hit.

I highly doubt dragon kick it self is responsible for preventing a single, raid-wide attack from wiping the raid. If it did, everyone would be at about 2% HP and begin dropping like flies to everything else going on.

Monk actually stacks quite well with itself, that's why MNK/MNK is a win-win-situation (and you get double the uptime on MNK mantra).

I was more relating it to other jobs but you make a good point. SE has told us countless times in the past how bad job-stacking is, I suppose they should make it more punishing on the LB bar to back it up.


EDIT: I see we're all over the MNK/MNK "synergy" lol Touche, folks!


If you'll look back, Daken said "a monk" referencing our dragon kick debuff. My point was that it's entirely possible now to progress in the newest content without one and that a single monk is not overpowered. Yes, something should be done about job stacking but don't you dare cry for a MNK nerf.

[Aiurily]

snip

the point of the potency per tp napkin math isn't to prove that nin needs paeon or that it's better to paeon nin than foes a blm; it's simply to prove that your idea of telling ninjas to "manage tp properly" has no solid argument behind it, because the current nin rotation priority system already is 100% tp efficient if the warrior is applying slash debuff.

ninjas aren't like monks; their dots aren't as tp inefficient as ToD/fracture (it's actually the most tp efficient, again), and they aren't like summoners who have self sustain at the sacrifice of dps. ninjas have 0 reason to drop their dots like a mnk would when they're the most efficient skills in term of tp to potency

my entire point is that there is literally no way for a ninja to improve their tp usage if they're already doing the normal, optimal rotation and using perfectly timed invigorates (which isn't gonna stop them from tp starving). i'm sorry if i come off as offensive, but that's my entire point, again.

now for the paeon for self+single melee dps vs foes for blm thing, to make an example i'd have to get a solid parse of a dummy fight where everyone (who are also all conveniently skilled) is comfortably performing to napkin math that out. but lets just go with imaginary numbers.

blm - 500 dps
brd - 430 dps
nin - 550 dps

so foes would be a free 15% dmg increase to the blm, +75 damage total. looking at a few of my parses, about 64% of my damage comes from weaponskills; if you cut that in half to factor in for tp starvation, that's 32% less damage; a nin would be working at 68% of their original dps, or 374 (total of -176 dps). the brd singing paeon would get -20% dps, or -86.

if paeon puts the nin back at their original dps, that's a net dps gain of 90 (+176 dps-86 dps). 90 dps>75 dps; and this isn't even factoring that it allows the brd to not be held back on their own tp, that the mnk who may be already in surplus of tp from goad may be able to use fracture, that even the tanks might even use fracture if it's a dps gain for them and tp concerns were an issue otherwise. the numbers are all napkin math tier/estimates, but i don't think they're very far from reality. you can shift the numbers up and down to your liking, but i still think the result would be favor paeon, or be very close, as long as they're reasonable and realistic.

[DakenBrunel]

lol this thread.

[Atreides]

I highly doubt dragon kick it self is responsible for preventing a single, raid-wide attack from wiping the raid. If it did, everyone would be at about 2% HP and begin dropping like flies to everything else going on.

T13 would like to have a word with you.
If you're bellow 6.3k HP and go without a monk it's gg.
Yes, Dragon kick just makes that much of a difference if you're talking about unavoidable magical damage that exceeds 6k.

[Vodomir]

I highly doubt dragon kick it self is responsible for preventing a single, raid-wide attack from wiping the raid. If it did, everyone would be at about 2% HP and begin dropping like flies to everything else going on.

But there are attacks out there that do a simple gear (vit + def) check with a massive group wide AoE that will drop HP of members (except of tanks, thanks to higher amounts of def, vit and defensive cooldowns) to a minimum and would kill anyone who doesn't meet the check. There is no dropping like flies as most of the times those checks allow for group recovery by either giving time to heal up before "everthing else" goes on, or by letting the tank be the only one to receive DMG for a while after that big hit. Just look at typical boss moves which are commonly found throughout each of the final turns of each Coul like Aetheric Profusion (Twintania), Megaflare (Nael) and Gigaflare (Bahamut Prime). Those are VIT+DEF checks that can be survived with lesser gear when bringing a monk.