Are cracks in the Armoury System beginning to surface?

[kukurumei]

Well it is a reason why so much development effort is devoted to what should actually be a smaller problem. There wasn't a voice of reason when they developed the system, now they have to live with the shoe-horning problem.

This is what they get for going against decades of MMO reasoning. Like almost every other aspect of FF14, this one also is going to have to be dismantled and reassembled.

If FF14 even has a future, it'll eventually get fixed. It can't stay the course obviously as it only ever worked out, when people think it's fun they can solo almost everything (which they did)

Pretty much a SP game.

[Preypacer]

Unless you have seen one of these super tanks in action then you can't really understand how over powered it is. Yes he was a very skilled player, probably the best I have seen so far in FFXIV and yes he should be rewarded but should he really be that far infront.

This leads to a huge problem with balancing content, who do they make it for? Do they make it for the super tanks which means unless you have access to all these skills you will not be able to complete, or do they make it for the guy who only wants to play GLA and has invested all his time in getting GLA to cap and mastering the skills available to it. If they go down that road then Mr. Super Tank will just walk through that content like it's on easy mode.

As it is at the minute if your the person who invested your time playing GLA, getting it to cap and learning to use the skills available to you, then your about to get a huge slap in the face when trying to complete the dungeon as main tank.

As has been stated, though, that content is open to everyone. It's a matter of choice.

Yes, players with more time are going to level up those classes and such more quickly than those with less time.. that goes without saying. That would be the case no matter what the scenario or how it was set up. Even with the fatigue system still in place, it was very clear that those with more time to play were still moving along quicker than those with less.

There's nothing "unfair" about that. It's common sense. All else being equal, if two people are doing the same thing, the person with more time to engage in that activity is going to make more progress and/or improve at it faster than the person with less time. That's just how it works, regardless. The only problem with that seems to lie in some kind of jealousy issue people have or something with the idea that others are making faster progress than they are. I consider myself a very casual player, people blow past me like I'm standing still all the time, and I still don't get what the problem is. They play more, so they progress faster... I'll get where they are in time, at my own pace. No big deal.

As for the "super tank" thing, you seem to be arguing it as though "that's the only option people will ever have, and so SE has to balance things out so being the "super tank" isn't so "out of line" with being a "less than super tank". In other words, adjust the game so that people with more developed characters aren't significantly more effective or versatile than a less developed one.

This is where we start getting into the dangerous territory of "reducing the game to suit the least common denominator" and sets the game well on the way to being yet another WoW derivative.

The content is there for anyone with the will and whim to pursue it. For those with less time, it'll simply take longer to get there... But they will still get there, if they want.

And frankly, for players who understand the game well enough to know that you don't *need* the "OMG Absolute Best Build" to be effective in the game, that won't even be a requirement.

In XI, or in any other MMO I've played, I have *never* been "up to snuff" with those "best of the best" standards, and I've always done fine. In fact a lot of how I've played has been considered among the "worst" ways to do so (because I didn't follow the wiki guides closely enough).... and I was reminded of it constantly.

I never leveled NIN in XI, though I was told plenty that I "had to". I didn't enjoy the job, and so I didn't play it. I still played, progressed and had fun. I played DRG even though I was tirelessly reminded by people that I was "playing a fail job" I heard all the "lolDRG" jokes, etc. etc. Regardless I got to 75 DRG, did end-game content and did just fine. I did so because for every person who is hung up on having/being/doing the "best", there are several who recognize what's "adequate" and are satisfied with that.

So, it just seems to me that the problem with having "the best decked out tank" is only a problem for those who feel they're "required" to meet that "standard".

The fear that content has to be created to cater to the best possible spec seems unfounded to me. There's no precedent for it. I've yet to play any encounter in any MMO where you needed the "absolute best build" to succeed at any content. Those with above-average builds had an easier time of it than those without, but it was never, by any stretch, "necessary" to complete the content.

Don't have all the tools that the "most well developed" characters do? Then find a strategy that makes use of what you and your party do have and adjust accordingly. As the threads regarding the Ogre fight have already discussed and various videos and screenshots have already shown, there's more than one way to approach it.

[WillRiker]

This is not a problem. It just needs to be balanced out.

They should require you to level other classes to gain access to certain abilities, but GLA needs to rank up many more classes to truly be effective than any other class. That really needs addressing. Many here wont dispute that Gladiator is the preferred tanking class. For such an important role, it shouldn't be as difficult as it is to put together an effective tank.

[KitCat]

Not really, Its more like being a Warrior in FFXI and taking the time to cap all the weapons it can equip which is

Clubs
Knives
Swords
axes
Staffs
Great Swords
Great Axe
Marksman
Archery
Throwing
etc.

And yes, I did that. My Warrior has all her weapons capped at 75 (I haven't touched abyssea)

I spent So much time skilling up every weapon my 3 main classes could use (drk, thf and whm) to max and getting all the weaponskills haha.

I can honestly say I had a ton of fun doing it too. I haven't touched abyssea either, and im ever tempted to play xi again because I had so much fun, but every time i go back I realize it'll never be the same again heh. Pretty depressing. Anyway, to the OP:

I agree and disagree, hah. I agree that someone who levels multiple jobs should have access to the abilities, and be stronger for it. I disagree with the notion of classes being made ineffective if you don't level all the jobs. This is a matter of balance for SE. The classes need to be made self-sufficient if needed. A glad should be able to tank reasonably well using only glad skills, or at most glad and 1 sub class. Every other class being just gravy on top of that.

I also agree that it should be more expensive to equip cross class skills. Like the person above who said cure 2 being 3 pts for conj and 5pts for glad.



All that being said i'd still drop this whole system for XI's job/sub system That's my own personal bias though lol

[Volsung]

Personally, I see leveling other classes for abilities is akin to taking the time to enhance the class you want to play. The whole purpose of this game was class=/= role. If some one doesn't take the time it shows. Why should somebody who has leveled only one class perform just as well as someone else?

Now I know some people do honestly have less time, and its frustrating for them. But that should show on every mmo of people who have less time vs people who have more time. Thats common sense.

Can't expect to play less and play equally as well. Last night I was with a dungeon group and the tank has never touched mage classes and admitted he didn't want to. This lead to him not having cures or raises and effected the role he was able to achieve.

EDIT-> I do want to make a clarification before anything is taken out of context. I DO believe there should be content for casuals. I don't think they should be treated worse or inferior, but some casuals want too much. ie teleports everywhere, and to solo a job in a month.
What is written here, is merely just "you reap what you sow", spending your time on stuff to get better performance out of it.

[KitCat]

It's not always just about not having enough time. Sometime people just don't want to level a certain class because it isn't fun. Noone wants to play something that isn't fun. That defeats the purpose of playing the game in the first place. Anyhow it's all about balance.

If a class can't at least be self-sufficient to the point where it's viable to play, then it's SE's failure at balance. I agree that levelling other classes for abilities should make you stronger, but building a class that can't sustain itself if so desired is just stupid.

[kukurumei]

Personally, I see leveling other classes for abilities is akin to taking the time to enhance the class you want to play. The whole purpose of this game was class=/= role. If some one doesn't take the time it shows. Why should somebody who has leveled only one class perform just as well as someone else?

Now I know some people do honestly have less time, and its frustrating for them. But that should show on every mmo of people who have less time vs people who have more time. Thats common sense.

Can't expect to play less and play equally as well. Last night I was with a dungeon group and the tank has never touched mage classes and admitted he didn't want to. This lead to him not having cures or raises and effected the role he was able to achieve.

EDIT-> I do want to make a clarification before anything is taken out of context. I DO believe there should be content for casuals. I don't think they should be treated worse or inferior, but some casuals want too much. ie teleports everywhere, and to solo a job in a month.
What is written here, is merely just "you reap what you sow", spending your time on stuff to get better performance out of it.

Then there's no such thing as classes, or roles or anything. There's basically one character in multiple formations. AKA the 1.17 super do everything redmage. The who wants to tank raise your hand era.

Your words come flinging back at you because this isn't an SP game, but a multiplayer game and a multiplayer game has balance and rules. Without them, you're just playing solo watching other people play solo. the requirement to group would then be to max everything out.

If the rule is to be lvl 50-all, then the balance is lvl50 all.

That's why SP thinking has no place in multiplayer dynamics. Decades of MMO history has told every developer that.

[Volsung]

Then there's no such thing as classes, or roles or anything. There's basically one character in multiple formations. AKA the 1.17 super do everything redmage. The who wants to tank raise your hand era.

Your words come flinging back at you because this isn't an SP game, but a multiplayer game and a multiplayer game has balance and rules. Without them, you're just playing solo watching other people play solo. the requirement to group would then be to max everything out.

If the rule is to be lvl 50-all, then the balance is lvl50 all.

That's why SP thinking has no place in multiplayer dynamics. Decades of MMO history has told every developer that.

I see your point but you're putting words in my mouth. I never said a character should be able to perform all roles once. never never never said that. And SE is balancing things and reassigning abilities in the future to prevent it.

My words were along the lines of a tanking gld with defender from mrd and cure from con, can perform better than a person with just gld. That putting time into your class by leveling other classes can benefit the role you want to play. There is no other way to look at that.

[Rydin]

Without reading 10 retarded pages... the point of this thread seems to be
"People who level everything shouldn't have more abilities than someone who has 1 class to 50?"
"There should be no advantage to leveling multiple classes"
"Uses abilities from other classes is an unfair advantage even if you've spent the time required to get those abilities"

[AceofRains]

I'd say what they need to is put on some penalty points, and/or restrict more skills. Cross-class skills are a brilliant idea they promote creativity in combat. Its an incentive to try new things, as im not sure how many people in the player base actually want to stay the same job the rest of their life. So yeah, its completely fair to have cross-class, but lets make sure we don't over do it. ;D