Women and Armor!

[seida]

I would not care at all, as I play a female Miqo'te :P

Well, you said earlier something about it being disgusting.

I like there being cute and sexy things to glamour. I just wish UNISEX items were more equal. Not sure why that's such an offensive idea.

And you obviously don't understand sensationalism in humor. Who's being ridiculous?

Given you are parroting the views of others who also didn't read the thread, it came across as neither sensational or humorous.

[Felis]

Show me some fan service gear from XI or early XIV then. That shouldn't be too hard, should it?

From december 2010

Since open beta 1.0:

[Remilia_Nightfall]

Why are you arguing about cosplayers? They have nothing to do with gender dimorphic gear. They can choose to cosplay in DRG AF without the belly window, female characters in this game can't.

I am arguing about cosplayers because they are one of the main reasons female Miqo'tes have been designed with the "idol" concept in mind. And idols are all around appearance. Seems to me relevant enough.

Because that's what it is, I don't understand why what we are saying isn't getting through to you. You seem intelligent and articulate enough. Is it just that damaging to your sense of self to accept that just maybe you don't care about others (in this case women) as much as you thought you did? To not accept that somethign you like is actually degrading to them?

Point is, it's not "objectifying" at all. This is a word that simply means "I don't agree with it, so it's not fine!". Deciding by default that a girl should not dress skimpy is what's objectifying. You are assuming that "how you dress is how you are". This is not the case. Showing a bit of cleavage is not degrading at all, it's no different than men showing their biceps or abs. They are just showing what the other sex wants to see. If you believe this is degrading, again, the problem is yours.

What if they were not allowed to leave the house without high heels and makeup? Still no problem? It's the removal of choice. Female character's can't wear a coatee without their boobs hanging out. They can't wear DRG AF without showing their midriff or Ninja AF without showing cleavage.

I also can't wear a bikini as a man. Why am I not allowed to do so? I totally can, in real life. Not that I tried, mind you. Probably.

Really? You really believe women are paid the same as men? It's refusing to see the problem which perpetuates the problem. Perhaps you should consider if you aren't being a little wilfully obtuse. It's not a weakness to re-evaluate your position after arguments from others.

I believe that quite often women find a job easier than man, for the sole reason they are women. At least where I live. And I am talking about honest, serious jobs, before you start suggesting other stuff.

Well, you said earlier something about it being disgusting.

I like there being cute and sexy things to glamour. I just wish UNISEX items were more equal. Not sure why that's such an offensive idea.

And I still believe that. Still, as long as I am not forced to play one, I don't really care. Most of the playerbase would still play female Miqo'tes like me, so everything would be fine :P

Your idea is not offensive. It's simply not needed considering it would require all "mandatory" sets (Tomes and Dungeon / Raid drops) to be unisex. That means, MOST of the gear would not be cute on female chars. And cute female chars is what most people want to see.

From december 2010

Now that's a very nice Rank B Absolute Territory.

[Adormus]

I believe that quite often women find a job easier than man, for the sole reason they are women. At least where I live. And I am talking about honest, serious jobs, before you start suggesting other stuff.

You're perception is off, then. For qualified jobs with any amount of responsibility men are still heavily prefered. Simply due to the fact that women can get pregnant. Well, that wouldn't be the case in countries without any labour laws to speak of. But then again the women would simply be fired the moment they get pregnant.

[Remilia_Nightfall]

You're perception is off, then. For qualified jobs with any amount of responsibility men are still heavily prefered. Simply due to the fact that women can get pregnant. Well, that wouldn't be the case in countries without any labour laws to speak of. But then again the women would simply be fired the moment they get pregnant.

I am sorry, but saying that my perception is off is a bit preposterous. It just depends where you live.

I could show you this.

http://i.imgur.com/zWvHHYB.png

Please stop objectifying men.

[Adormus]

I am sorry, but saying that my perception is off is a bit preposterous. It just depends where you live.

It does not, since the problem stays the same, no matter where you live. I live in Germany - a country which is called "Socialist Hell" by US-Americans. Guess what? We have those problems as well.

[Aegis]

I am arguing about cosplayers because they are one of the main reasons female Miqo'tes have been designed with the "idol" concept in mind. And idols are all around appearance. Seems to me relevant enough.

Why do you think they are based on idols? You honestly believe they aren't based based on Mithra, which weren't influenced by idols? They weren't overtly provocative or cutesy (the latter being the domain of the Tau Taru).

Point is, it's not "objectifying" at all. This is a word that simply means "I don't agree with it, so it's not fine!". Deciding by default that a girl should not dress skimpy is what's objectifying. You are assuming that "how you dress is how you are". This is not the case. Showing a bit of cleavage is not degrading at all, it's no different than men showing their biceps or abs. They are just showing what the other sex wants to see. If you believe this is degrading, again, the problem is yours.

Objectifying is reducing someone to their physical characteristics. If the gear was also available in the non-revealing version that males get then I would agree with you. There's no problem with people choosing to dress provocatively. But that choice is taken away. The (male) designer decided that if a guy wants to look like Kain in his DRG AF, that's fine. If a girl wants to she's gonna have to show some skin. That's objectification. If a company uniform were a sensible business suit for men and a skimpy coatee set for women, wouldn't you have a problem with that?

I also can't wear a bikini as a man. Why am I not allowed to do so? I totally can, in real life. Not that I tried, mind you. Probably.

The male swimsuit is a bikini...

I believe that quite often women find a job easier than man, for the sole reason they are women. At least where I live. And I am talking about honest, serious jobs, before you start suggesting other stuff.

According to economist Alan Manning of the London School of Economics, the process of closing the gender pay gap has slowed substantially and women could earn less than men for the next 150 years because of discrimination and ineffective government policies.[17][18] A 2011 study by the British CMI revealed that if pay growth continues for female executives at current rates, the gap between the earnings of female and male executives would not be closed until 2109.[19] Women Chief Financial Officers (CFOs) are paid 16% lower on average as compared to their male counterparts.[20]

Your vague, anecdotal evidence < A study by the LSE. The fact that gender discrimination exists in the workplace isn't sensibly up for debate.

[Remilia_Nightfall]

Why do you think they are based on idols? You honestly believe they aren't based based on Mithra, which weren't influenced by idols? They weren't overtly provocative or cutesy (the latter being the domain of the Tau Taru).

Again, because it's written on the official artbook. Same goes for human females, they were designed with the "princess" concept in mind.

Objectifying is reducing someone to their physical characteristics. If the gear was also available in the non-revealing version that males get then I would agree with you. There's no problem with people choosing to dress provocatively. But that choice is taken away. The (male) designer decided that if a guy wants to look like Kain in his DRG AF, that's fine. If a girl wants to she's gonna have to show some skin. That's objectification. If a company uniform were a sensible business suit for men and a skimpy coatee set for women, wouldn't you have a problem with that?

No one is "reducing someone", tho. Emphasizing does not mean reducing. It's not like if you dress sexy you are suddenly stupid.

The male swimsuit is a bikini...

Can't wear the bra tho

According to economist Alan Manning of the London School of Economics, the process of closing the gender pay gap has slowed substantially and women could earn less than men for the next 150 years because of discrimination and ineffective government policies.[17][18] A 2011 study by the British CMI revealed that if pay growth continues for female executives at current rates, the gap between the earnings of female and male executives would not be closed until 2109.[19] Women Chief Financial Officers (CFOs) are paid 16% lower on average as compared to their male counterparts.[20]


Your vague, anecdotal evidence < A study by the LSE. The fact that gender discrimination exists in the workplace isn't sensibly up for debate.

Fair enough, I concede this point. Even if my country is one of the better ones. This might be why I see no difference at all.

[Aegis]

Again, because it's written on the official artbook. Same goes for human females, they were designed with the "princess" concept in mind.

Isn't that the ARR Artbook? That's (I believe, I don't have it myself) referencing the level 1 RSE, not the race. The race was designed years and years ago, before V1's launch.

No one is "reducing someone", tho. Emphasizing does not mean reducing. It's not like if you dress sexy you are suddenly stupid.

If you dress someone in a bikini to sell toner you are reducing someone. It's the same concept. If you can't wear DRG AF without flaunting skin, you are being reduced.

Can't wear the bra tho

Au contraire, the men got a nice bra too :s

Fair enough, I concede this point. Even if my country is one of the better ones. This might be why I see no difference at all.

I'd be curious to know where you're from. It's the same over most of the western world. I believe the Scandinavians are a bit better (as they are at most social policies, usually, lol).

From december 2010

Since open beta 1.0:

Those were whores. Hardly typical of Miqo'te as a race. The clothes they were wearing was underwear (which covers more than the Coliseum Armour btw). And before you say 'they were dancers' one of them explicitly stated they would have sex with you for money.

The Coatee set is one of the ones that we have a problem with. It was the first piece of gear introduced that was substantially different between females and males.

[Remilia_Nightfall]

Isn't that the ARR Artbook? That's (I believe, I don't have it myself) referencing the level 1 RSE, not the race. The race was designed years and years ago, before V1's launch.

Yes, it's the ARR artbook. While I understand what you are saying, please check the recent racial "poses" they introduced for each race. You can clearly see how the female Miqo'te ones have a more "energetic" and "cutesy sexy" feel (especially the one with the hands behind their head. Who would suddenly stand in that pose? It's not relaxing at all). Female humans are different - seems to me they have a more "reserved" and "shy" vibe. Might be just me, tho.

If you dress someone in a bikini to sell toner you are reducing someone. It's the same concept. If you can't wear DRG AF without flaunting skin, you are being reduced.

I guess we are down to semantics. I feel it would be pointless to keep arguing about this.

I'd be curious to know where you're from. It's the same over most of the western world. I believe the Scandinavians are a bit better (as they are at most social policies, usually, lol).

I am from Italy. Yes, I know, some prominent political figure kinda created a rather peculiar image of Italy, but what I witness everyday is that feminism movements are really strong here, which causes companies to treat women with extreme caution since they would like to avoid troubles. This, in some companies, creates the exact opposite problem since males are the ones ostracized.