Women and Armor!

[Aegis]

I am arguing about cosplayers because they are one of the main reasons female Miqo'tes have been designed with the "idol" concept in mind. And idols are all around appearance. Seems to me relevant enough.

Why do you think they are based on idols? You honestly believe they aren't based based on Mithra, which weren't influenced by idols? They weren't overtly provocative or cutesy (the latter being the domain of the Tau Taru).

Point is, it's not "objectifying" at all. This is a word that simply means "I don't agree with it, so it's not fine!". Deciding by default that a girl should not dress skimpy is what's objectifying. You are assuming that "how you dress is how you are". This is not the case. Showing a bit of cleavage is not degrading at all, it's no different than men showing their biceps or abs. They are just showing what the other sex wants to see. If you believe this is degrading, again, the problem is yours.

Objectifying is reducing someone to their physical characteristics. If the gear was also available in the non-revealing version that males get then I would agree with you. There's no problem with people choosing to dress provocatively. But that choice is taken away. The (male) designer decided that if a guy wants to look like Kain in his DRG AF, that's fine. If a girl wants to she's gonna have to show some skin. That's objectification. If a company uniform were a sensible business suit for men and a skimpy coatee set for women, wouldn't you have a problem with that?

I also can't wear a bikini as a man. Why am I not allowed to do so? I totally can, in real life. Not that I tried, mind you. Probably.

The male swimsuit is a bikini...

I believe that quite often women find a job easier than man, for the sole reason they are women. At least where I live. And I am talking about honest, serious jobs, before you start suggesting other stuff.

According to economist Alan Manning of the London School of Economics, the process of closing the gender pay gap has slowed substantially and women could earn less than men for the next 150 years because of discrimination and ineffective government policies.[17][18] A 2011 study by the British CMI revealed that if pay growth continues for female executives at current rates, the gap between the earnings of female and male executives would not be closed until 2109.[19] Women Chief Financial Officers (CFOs) are paid 16% lower on average as compared to their male counterparts.[20]

Your vague, anecdotal evidence < A study by the LSE. The fact that gender discrimination exists in the workplace isn't sensibly up for debate.

[Remilia_Nightfall]

Why do you think they are based on idols? You honestly believe they aren't based based on Mithra, which weren't influenced by idols? They weren't overtly provocative or cutesy (the latter being the domain of the Tau Taru).

Again, because it's written on the official artbook. Same goes for human females, they were designed with the "princess" concept in mind.

Objectifying is reducing someone to their physical characteristics. If the gear was also available in the non-revealing version that males get then I would agree with you. There's no problem with people choosing to dress provocatively. But that choice is taken away. The (male) designer decided that if a guy wants to look like Kain in his DRG AF, that's fine. If a girl wants to she's gonna have to show some skin. That's objectification. If a company uniform were a sensible business suit for men and a skimpy coatee set for women, wouldn't you have a problem with that?

No one is "reducing someone", tho. Emphasizing does not mean reducing. It's not like if you dress sexy you are suddenly stupid.

The male swimsuit is a bikini...

Can't wear the bra tho

According to economist Alan Manning of the London School of Economics, the process of closing the gender pay gap has slowed substantially and women could earn less than men for the next 150 years because of discrimination and ineffective government policies.[17][18] A 2011 study by the British CMI revealed that if pay growth continues for female executives at current rates, the gap between the earnings of female and male executives would not be closed until 2109.[19] Women Chief Financial Officers (CFOs) are paid 16% lower on average as compared to their male counterparts.[20]


Your vague, anecdotal evidence < A study by the LSE. The fact that gender discrimination exists in the workplace isn't sensibly up for debate.

Fair enough, I concede this point. Even if my country is one of the better ones. This might be why I see no difference at all.

[Aegis]

Again, because it's written on the official artbook. Same goes for human females, they were designed with the "princess" concept in mind.

Isn't that the ARR Artbook? That's (I believe, I don't have it myself) referencing the level 1 RSE, not the race. The race was designed years and years ago, before V1's launch.

No one is "reducing someone", tho. Emphasizing does not mean reducing. It's not like if you dress sexy you are suddenly stupid.

If you dress someone in a bikini to sell toner you are reducing someone. It's the same concept. If you can't wear DRG AF without flaunting skin, you are being reduced.

Can't wear the bra tho

Au contraire, the men got a nice bra too :s

Fair enough, I concede this point. Even if my country is one of the better ones. This might be why I see no difference at all.

I'd be curious to know where you're from. It's the same over most of the western world. I believe the Scandinavians are a bit better (as they are at most social policies, usually, lol).

From december 2010

Since open beta 1.0:

Those were whores. Hardly typical of Miqo'te as a race. The clothes they were wearing was underwear (which covers more than the Coliseum Armour btw). And before you say 'they were dancers' one of them explicitly stated they would have sex with you for money.

The Coatee set is one of the ones that we have a problem with. It was the first piece of gear introduced that was substantially different between females and males.

[Remilia_Nightfall]

Isn't that the ARR Artbook? That's (I believe, I don't have it myself) referencing the level 1 RSE, not the race. The race was designed years and years ago, before V1's launch.

Yes, it's the ARR artbook. While I understand what you are saying, please check the recent racial "poses" they introduced for each race. You can clearly see how the female Miqo'te ones have a more "energetic" and "cutesy sexy" feel (especially the one with the hands behind their head. Who would suddenly stand in that pose? It's not relaxing at all). Female humans are different - seems to me they have a more "reserved" and "shy" vibe. Might be just me, tho.

If you dress someone in a bikini to sell toner you are reducing someone. It's the same concept. If you can't wear DRG AF without flaunting skin, you are being reduced.

I guess we are down to semantics. I feel it would be pointless to keep arguing about this.

I'd be curious to know where you're from. It's the same over most of the western world. I believe the Scandinavians are a bit better (as they are at most social policies, usually, lol).

I am from Italy. Yes, I know, some prominent political figure kinda created a rather peculiar image of Italy, but what I witness everyday is that feminism movements are really strong here, which causes companies to treat women with extreme caution since they would like to avoid troubles. This, in some companies, creates the exact opposite problem since males are the ones ostracized.

[Aegis]

Yes, it's the ARR artbook. While I understand what you are saying, please check the recent racial "poses" they introduced for each race. You can clearly see how the female Miqo'te ones have a more "energetic" and "cutesy sexy" feel (especially the one with the hands behind their head. Who would suddenly stand in that pose? It's not relaxing at all). Female humans are different - seems to me they have a more "reserved" and "shy" vibe. Might be just me, tho.

I think then that I can modify my position to the extent that I don't think Miqo'te were designed to be 'idolesque' (if that's a word) but they have been developed that way. They were based on Mithra, but the dev team have, since release and particularly since 2.0 release, been developed to be more overtly provocative. Which is kinda my point.

I guess we are down to semantics. I feel it would be pointless to keep arguing about this.

Agreed, we've both made our cases and neither is going to persuade the other. We can agree to disagree.

I am from Italy. Yes, I know, some prominent political figure kinda created a rather peculiar image of Italy, but what I witness everyday is that feminism movements are really strong here, which causes companies to treat women with extreme caution since they would like to avoid troubles. This, in some companies, creates the exact opposite problem since males are the ones ostracized.

I will admit to a bit of good old-fashioned EU racism. When you said Italy I immediately thought "No way are the Italians gonna have a close gender pay gap". Turns out it's the best in Europe at 1%. Sylvio really didn't put gender relations in Italy in a good light. Who'da thunk the Germans of all people would be at 20%?

Also, Kudos on your english. I wouldn't have picked you as a non-native speaker.

[Felis]

Those were whores. Hardly typical of Miqo'te as a race. The clothes they were wearing was underwear (which covers more than the Coliseum Armour btw). And before you say 'they were dancers' one of them explicitly stated they would have sex with you for money.

Miqo'te companion personality (from october 2010):

Miqo’te Female
A lady who knows what she likes, and likes a little bit of everything. Don’t be fooled by her coquettish manner and all-too-apparent charms; in her breast beats the fiery heart of a warrior. Not to worry, though, she’ll be gentle—assuming that’s what you like.

[Aegis]

Miqo'te companion personality (from october 2010):

That's cherry picking a single NPC. What about Y'shtola, was she flirty or seductive?

The leader of the Sirens was, and she was Hyur.