F2P, P2W, and the "slippery slope" fallacy

[axemtitanium]

No, this doesn't need another thread. Yes, I'm making it anyway.

There's a certain phrase that I've seen repeated too many times to count on these forums. That phrase is "slippery slope" and you're using it wrong. The thing most people don't realize is that the slippery slope is a logical fallacy. DON'T USE IT. If you use it, you're automatically wrong and you lose the argument.

Now, let's prove how wrong the argument is. You say there's a "slippery slope" from vanity cash shop items to pay to win and/or free to play. There is not. Vanity items have no impact on gameplay and are not even in the same ballpark as pay to win items like experience boosters, level boosters, or buyable raid gear. They're as different as apples and oranges. Yes, they're both fruit but they're different in virtually every other aspect.

Come back with this argument once you're able to buy viable raid gear in the cash shop. For now, you don't even have one leg to stand on.

[DefendPopPunk]

I think this thread is just going to lead to more threads and eventually the first and second pages of GD will be full, resulting in no feedback being collected and future game decisions will never include the community's input.

[Meltzeiferion]

Vanity items have no impact on gameplay?

No, what you mean is they have no impact on your gameplay. You however do not take into account that others may put much more stock into such things as collectables and vanity. Raid gear may be the top end of the gameplay to you, whereas vanity gear, socializing and/or collecting all the items in the game may be the top end of gameplay to someone else. Just because you don't see it as important to yourself doesn't mean it automatically has no impact on someones game.

I don't know why it is so hard for people to understand that people have different playstyles and wants for a game, and an MMO for a lot of people is a world they can socialize and have fun in rather than solely acquire 'better and better gear'. As an example, I dislike the gear treadmill, but I understand that other people might actually like it. You may not agree with them and they may use 'slippery slope' wrong, but to say they have no leg to stand on is silly.

[Mogi]

snip

Then if you see something you like buy it and if you won't then that is up to you and all the others you say
this Affects SE makes the cash shop 100% up to us the players if you can't pay for something in it i'm sorry so they need to take it away from others who can?

[Meltzeiferion]

Then if you see something you like buy it and if you won't then that is up to you and all the others you say
this Affects SE makes the cash shop 100% up to us the players if you can't pay for something in it i'm sorry so they need to take it away from others who can?

What you and a lot of others don't understand is that there are different play styles in an MMO. I personally actually kind of dislike dungeons, the treadmill is pretty meh (though I do it to keep up) and in fact I play more for a lot of side content. Now I'm not a major collector so I don't feel as much drive for buying these cash shop items or farming content a ton to get a minion/mount drop, but I am capable of understanding that for some other people, THAT is the play style they enjoy. There are people out there who play the game to get achievements, to collect 100% of the minions, 100% of the mounts and this is what they play the game for. Unfortunately for them, their style of play is being monetized. People like me, you and others can disregard it and just be like 'oh it's vanity and optional, who cares' but for these people it is the reason they play the game and now to continue with their goals they will have to perpetually pay extra money to the cash shop as more and more vanity is added to it.

What I have against it is that it is essentially monetizing a specific play style that should be just as valid to the game as any others, but now to get the SAME enjoyment from the game as others who play for different reasons, they have to put up extra cash any time things are added to the cash shop. That is if they don't decide it isn't worth it and just quit the game entirely.

Sure, for you, for me and plenty of others we can just decide not to buy these items or not as they are 'optional' for us, but consider the people in the community who will socialize, add to it and be there whose play styles are being harmed while you all just stand by and allow it because it isn't the way you play. I know it is hard to understand their mindset but you should at least give it a try.

I'm not really gonna argue about it a lot, I'm trying to keep myself mostly out of it but I feel some drive to try and explain to some people WHY people are so bothered by these sorts of things even if they don't understand or look down upon it.


Incidentally I also think as customers we SHOULD be trying to get the most we can for our money. Corporations are trying to make as much money off us as they can and the balance to that is that we SHOULD be trying to get the best deal we can. It really isn't a bad thing for people to fight against a cash shop, it's ok if you agree with it but do you seriously blame people for wanting to get the best deal for their money (sub fee) as possible without paying all this extra stuff?

[Dyvid]

No, this doesn't need another thread. Yes, I'm making it anyway.

There's a certain phrase that I've seen repeated too many times to count on these forums. That phrase is "slippery slope" and you're using it wrong. The thing most people don't realize is that the slippery slope is a logical fallacy. DON'T USE IT. If you use it, you're automatically wrong and you lose the argument.

Now, let's prove how wrong the argument is. You say there's a "slippery slope" from vanity cash shop items to pay to win and/or free to play. There is not. Vanity items have no impact on gameplay and are not even in the same ballpark as pay to win items like experience boosters, level boosters, or buyable raid gear. They're as different as apples and oranges. Yes, they're both fruit but they're different in virtually every other aspect.

Come back with this argument once you're able to buy viable raid gear in the cash shop. For now, you don't even have one leg to stand on.

Your line of thinking is a fallacy then because you just assume PvE is the only content in this game. What you call vanity I call different aspects of the wedding feature, which by nature is considered sandbox content. It's no different they asking players to pay for savage mode of binding coil because it doesn't have any raid gear or impact on gameplay.

[BreathlessTao]

...because, for you, "viable raid gear" is what the game (read: gameplay) is all about, what is relevant for you, yes?

I can agree that there is a group of such players, indeed. But that's not everyone. I bet my neck there's another group for whom the gameplay comprises of "vanity items" - because they roleplay, because they aim for customisation, because they're just collectors, whatever other reason you can think of. For them, it has a very big impact on gameplay, as big as raid gear in the cash shop would have for you. For them, vanity is P2W.

SE seems to have decided to focus on and cater to the grinders, that's true. But it doesn't change that fact. Especially if SE, while mainly focusing on grinders, does not exclude these "other" players either as evidenced by the facts that they have already given us housing (nevermind how botched up it is, that's a topic for another discussion) and are giving us "marriage" as well (again, the quality/execution/presentation of it is another matter) - neither of which is relevant to level progression or endgame raids.

Sorry, but we do have legs to stand on.

[Meltzeiferion]

I could also point out that in declaring their argument automatically 'wrong' and that they lost by the fact they used a fallacy is in itself a formal fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Argument from fallacy – assumes that if an argument for some conclusion is fallacious, then the conclusion is false.[4]

While they may not be arguing 'correctly' it does not automatically mean that their conclusion itself is faulty, just that their attempt to prove it is.

[DefendPopPunk]

I could also point out that in declaring their argument automatically 'wrong' and that they lost by the fact they used a fallacy is in itself a formal fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Argument from fallacy – assumes that if an argument for some conclusion is fallacious, then the conclusion is false.[4]

While they may not be arguing 'correctly' it does not automatically mean that their conclusion itself is faulty, just that their attempt to prove it is.

Well played. While I agree that there are a lot of slippery slope arguments being used lately, with the advent of the cash shop and such, this one is also thrown around a bit as well.

[axemtitanium]

I could also point out that in declaring their argument automatically 'wrong' and that they lost by the fact they used a fallacy is in itself a formal fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Argument from fallacy – assumes that if an argument for some conclusion is fallacious, then the conclusion is false.[4]

While they may not be arguing 'correctly' it does not automatically mean that their conclusion itself is faulty, just that their attempt to prove it is.

It's a good thing I didn't just end my post at describing the fallacy and proceeded with my actual argument then, isn't it?