F2P, P2W, and the "slippery slope" fallacy

[Xhominid]

OP:

What if you made it your personal goal to have all the mounts. You enjoyed working towards collecting them. As you and I both know, some of those mounts are 'locked' behind difficult content, and have low drop rates...furthermore, in order to get it even if it drops, you have outroll the rest of your party. My point...is having those mounts took work, it was effort and it required something of the player...it also was for some, a logical focus.

Then you should know what you are getting yourself into by leagues the very SECOND they give you minions and mounts for buying the collector's edition and other such Squenix Merch.
Them adding a cash shop is just making it more round-about but don't complain about how much you want this mount/minion when you didn't complain about the collector's edition and buying merch beforehand.

[SpookyGhost]

Buying a physical item and receiving a virtual bonus (typically a minion) is not the same as buying just the virtual item.

Man, these topics really do all end up having the same discussions, don't they?

[axemtitanium]

I could also point out that in declaring their argument automatically 'wrong' and that they lost by the fact they used a fallacy is in itself a formal fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Argument from fallacy – assumes that if an argument for some conclusion is fallacious, then the conclusion is false.[4]

While they may not be arguing 'correctly' it does not automatically mean that their conclusion itself is faulty, just that their attempt to prove it is.

It's a good thing I didn't just end my post at describing the fallacy and proceeded with my actual argument then, isn't it?

[Meltzeiferion]

There's a certain phrase that I've seen repeated too many times to count on these forums. That phrase is "slippery slope" and you're using it wrong. The thing most people don't realize is that the slippery slope is a logical fallacy. DON'T USE IT. If you use it, you're automatically wrong and you lose the argument.

See what I bolded? That is where you did it.

[NolLacnala]

No, this doesn't need another thread.

You'll defend the cash shop right up until they offer extra weekly lockouts for raids.

"Only $9.99 to reset all your weekly lockouts! BUY NOW!"

[Zumi]

You'll defend the cash shop right up until they offer extra weekly lockouts for raids.

"Only $9.99 to reset all your weekly lockouts! BUY NOW!"

F2P games offer that kind of stuff. It attracts what the industry calls whales that will spend maybe $1000 a month on the game.

[NyarukoW]

...While I have no interest in vanity and therefore don't care about the current cash shop, it's very reasonable that people who play this game partially for the enjoyment of vanity would feel excluded if they don't have a lot of real money.

The POINT was, if you are trying to collect ALL the mounts, the only way to do that would be to spend real cash to do so. ....

Well it is clear that SE has decided that you can win a large portion of the vanity game without money, but that last 1% or so is going to cost money. Just like you have to buy the CE bundle to CE mounts and minion.

...I'm pretty sure there is something in game if they made you pay extra for it, and it was part of 'the main reason you play' you'd be upset about it.

That would be true for everyone. I DO NOT know of people that like to pay more for less. However SE is not turning existing stuff into cash shop options. They are adding vanity items in the future, while still adding lots of content that that is paid for by subscription like the recent 2.4. It is not unlike buffet restaurant places that charge a base rate, but allows patron to pay extra for wine or alcohol. In contrast airlines very much deserve the hate they generate by making passenger pay for checked luggage which used to be included with the ticket price, but now, not only, is airfare more expensive, and also, you have to pay for luggage too.

[Nel_Celestine]

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...77#post2615777 from today, assuming based on the whole 'bonding ceremony' thing.

I hesitate linking either of these though because giving them active suggestions of 'things we'd pay extra for' seems beyond dumb. Suggest things you want...but hope they include them for your sub fee, at least then you stand a shot of getting what you want for the money you already pay

Thank you for linking my topic, but really you must not have actually read much of it before posting.

Anyways, the reason I made it was because the cash shop exists regardless of what some players what and not everything can be brought into the game lore wise without some people shitting a brick. (I'm looking at a lot of the crossover event flamers) Since they would only do crossover events with new titles or special events and many MANY of us have been fans for a long time, something that might get that kind of content into the game is the cash shop because it would be a revenue driver.

Besides, 3 minions, a single mount and some old Halloween costumes is not going to break everything for everyone when a single or even several people buy them. There is also zero confirmation that the Eternal Bonding will cost real money. It's all speculation based on the live letter and the mention of mogstation. IIRC you needed to use playonline in XI to register for a wedding and it was account bound. That didn't require paying RL money but did require a gil investment. What is to say this won't be one either. Until we have an official translation on that, Eternal Bonding is a speculator debate at best and a meaning flame rant at worst.

Buying a physical item and receiving a virtual bonus (typically a minion) is not the same as buying just the virtual item.

Man, these topics really do all end up having the same discussions, don't they?

http://store.na.square-enix.com/stor...ctID.281295900

http://store.na.square-enix.com/stor...ctID.281318600

[Xairos]

I want to interject a thought into this thread and pose a question to anyone who will read. To those of you saying that the way you (personal "you") win at this game is to collect mounts and minions and as such SE is selling "Win" on the cash shop and thus this game is Pay to win, I ask you:

At any point in this game did you battle, level up, collect gear and weapons? Because if you boil this game's concept down, The language that this game uses for "Power" is gear stats and weapon stats and character level. So unless you logged in and sat in the starter zone saying "I dont want to fight, I just want to collect", you have and are playing this game and participating in the "Win" condition of this game.

It is fallacious and dishonest to claim that the new "Win" condition of this game is to collect minions and mounts and pass that off on the forums as a perceived form of "Power". This is akin to agreeing to play a game of "Tag" and then refusing to chase. Akin to agreeing to run a race and not running the agreed-upon path.

Even if you convince yourself that your form of "Power" is collecting minions and mounts and clothing to jazz yourself up, you can not re-write the code of this game's definition of "Power". SE is not selling power. Even if they sell cards packs for Gold saucer, that wont be "Power" because even in Magic: The gathering, packs represent a chance of randomly pulling "power" whereas buying specific cards is straight buying "power" and even hearthstone doesnt sell specific cards.

Slippery slope is one fallacy, true. But the main fallacy here is one of dishonesty. You can't agree to play the game, in the terms of how the game was coded to be played and then declare that the "win" condition is something otherwise. Just like I can not play this game, with the intent of leveling BLM to become a street magician in order to make gil. The game is not coded in such a way to let me do that. Furthermore it was not advertised as a game in which i could do such a thing.

One last thing, even if your mission is to catch em all as far as minions and mounts are concerned, you have to, you must, be aware of the fact that this is an MMO, and thus any thing you attempt to 100% will be daunting, exhausting, and quite possibly cost you Real life money. Achievements and Collections are the chief among real money requirements. This comes in the form of buying pre-orders, collector's editions, virtual tickets (blizzard), art books, soundtracks... etc

[Miitan]

I get the impression that a vocal minority on the forums don't actually want to play the game per se, but rather use it as an expensive dress-up simulator. :3