F2P, P2W, and the "slippery slope" fallacy

[axemtitanium]

No, this doesn't need another thread. Yes, I'm making it anyway.

There's a certain phrase that I've seen repeated too many times to count on these forums. That phrase is "slippery slope" and you're using it wrong. The thing most people don't realize is that the slippery slope is a logical fallacy. DON'T USE IT. If you use it, you're automatically wrong and you lose the argument.

Now, let's prove how wrong the argument is. You say there's a "slippery slope" from vanity cash shop items to pay to win and/or free to play. There is not. Vanity items have no impact on gameplay and are not even in the same ballpark as pay to win items like experience boosters, level boosters, or buyable raid gear. They're as different as apples and oranges. Yes, they're both fruit but they're different in virtually every other aspect.

Come back with this argument once you're able to buy viable raid gear in the cash shop. For now, you don't even have one leg to stand on.

[DefendPopPunk]

I think this thread is just going to lead to more threads and eventually the first and second pages of GD will be full, resulting in no feedback being collected and future game decisions will never include the community's input.

[Meltzeiferion]

Vanity items have no impact on gameplay?

No, what you mean is they have no impact on your gameplay. You however do not take into account that others may put much more stock into such things as collectables and vanity. Raid gear may be the top end of the gameplay to you, whereas vanity gear, socializing and/or collecting all the items in the game may be the top end of gameplay to someone else. Just because you don't see it as important to yourself doesn't mean it automatically has no impact on someones game.

I don't know why it is so hard for people to understand that people have different playstyles and wants for a game, and an MMO for a lot of people is a world they can socialize and have fun in rather than solely acquire 'better and better gear'. As an example, I dislike the gear treadmill, but I understand that other people might actually like it. You may not agree with them and they may use 'slippery slope' wrong, but to say they have no leg to stand on is silly.

[Dyvid]

No, this doesn't need another thread. Yes, I'm making it anyway.

There's a certain phrase that I've seen repeated too many times to count on these forums. That phrase is "slippery slope" and you're using it wrong. The thing most people don't realize is that the slippery slope is a logical fallacy. DON'T USE IT. If you use it, you're automatically wrong and you lose the argument.

Now, let's prove how wrong the argument is. You say there's a "slippery slope" from vanity cash shop items to pay to win and/or free to play. There is not. Vanity items have no impact on gameplay and are not even in the same ballpark as pay to win items like experience boosters, level boosters, or buyable raid gear. They're as different as apples and oranges. Yes, they're both fruit but they're different in virtually every other aspect.

Come back with this argument once you're able to buy viable raid gear in the cash shop. For now, you don't even have one leg to stand on.

Your line of thinking is a fallacy then because you just assume PvE is the only content in this game. What you call vanity I call different aspects of the wedding feature, which by nature is considered sandbox content. It's no different they asking players to pay for savage mode of binding coil because it doesn't have any raid gear or impact on gameplay.

[BreathlessTao]

...because, for you, "viable raid gear" is what the game (read: gameplay) is all about, what is relevant for you, yes?

I can agree that there is a group of such players, indeed. But that's not everyone. I bet my neck there's another group for whom the gameplay comprises of "vanity items" - because they roleplay, because they aim for customisation, because they're just collectors, whatever other reason you can think of. For them, it has a very big impact on gameplay, as big as raid gear in the cash shop would have for you. For them, vanity is P2W.

SE seems to have decided to focus on and cater to the grinders, that's true. But it doesn't change that fact. Especially if SE, while mainly focusing on grinders, does not exclude these "other" players either as evidenced by the facts that they have already given us housing (nevermind how botched up it is, that's a topic for another discussion) and are giving us "marriage" as well (again, the quality/execution/presentation of it is another matter) - neither of which is relevant to level progression or endgame raids.

Sorry, but we do have legs to stand on.

[Meltzeiferion]

I could also point out that in declaring their argument automatically 'wrong' and that they lost by the fact they used a fallacy is in itself a formal fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Argument from fallacy – assumes that if an argument for some conclusion is fallacious, then the conclusion is false.[4]

While they may not be arguing 'correctly' it does not automatically mean that their conclusion itself is faulty, just that their attempt to prove it is.

[DefendPopPunk]

I could also point out that in declaring their argument automatically 'wrong' and that they lost by the fact they used a fallacy is in itself a formal fallacy.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
Argument from fallacy – assumes that if an argument for some conclusion is fallacious, then the conclusion is false.[4]

While they may not be arguing 'correctly' it does not automatically mean that their conclusion itself is faulty, just that their attempt to prove it is.

Well played. While I agree that there are a lot of slippery slope arguments being used lately, with the advent of the cash shop and such, this one is also thrown around a bit as well.

[NyarukoW]

Certain facts should be obvious:
1. Gameplay impacting is NOT pay-to-win
2. Players themselves have asked for items to buy on the cash shop
3. Players themselves have repeatedly made it clear they do NOT want pay-to-win

So where does this leave SE? SE will try to make the player base happy by having a cash shop that does NOT do pay-to-win. Is this so terrible?

For example, consider the minion collector. If you did NOT get the CE edition you will not get the baby behemoth minion. Whether having a baby behemoth is gameplay impacting is open for debate. But it is certainly NOT pay-to-win. You flat out can not win in game under any circumstances, it must be bought. So if SE sells vanity items that, like the baby behemoth, coerul mount, etc. can not be obtained in game, is that so terrible?

[CYoung187]

This thread is on a slippery slope

[SpookyGhost]

Certain facts should be obvious:
2. Players themselves have asked for items to buy on the cash shop

Not saying this didn't happen, but source pls?