F2P, P2W, and the "slippery slope" fallacy

[DoctorPepper]

I'm so smart I can fight fallacies with fallacies.

[Kinseykinz]

OP:

What if you made it your personal goal to have all the mounts. You enjoyed working towards collecting them. As you and I both know, some of those mounts are 'locked' behind difficult content, and have low drop rates...furthermore, in order to get it even if it drops, you have outroll the rest of your party. My point...is having those mounts took work, it was effort and it required something of the player...it also was for some, a logical focus.


But now, some of these mounts are 'hidden' behind pay walls.

Same thing with minions.

So for this group of people, now what you're saying is 'it's OKAY that YOU have to pay extra to enjoy the game in the way you desire, because it doesn't effect me' ...or in effect suggesting they make choices...is having a full book of mounts important to this person, even though it's going to cost them more to play/they might not even actually want the mount outside of the 'I have every mount' plan...or do they focus on 'in-game items only'...and just accept they won't purchase anything?

I am not one such collector, but there are plenty of folk playing this game who are.


Furthermore, this really isn't an Apples to Oranges thing...sure, it is to you...but not everyone cares that 'oh it's only vanity' stuff. Some would be okay with the cash shop if it was filled with stuff like 'only a booster pack' or 'only end-game quality gear' But would prefer vanity stuff remained earnable in game. Now you can say 'yeah but SE said...' or 'now that's crazy' And you're entitled to those thoughts and opinions, but it doesn't make your side right.

Personally, I think that 'vanity' stuff should be in game...not because it gives people an advantage, but because it drives some people to play and do in-game stuff more than some of these folk are driven by content such as end-game raiding (endgame and raiding isn't for everyone). Why do you think so many people, 1 year later still covet the Bluebird minion? You can easily buy it off the MB's if you have the gil....and even more so if you consider that by now, you've had a year to save the gil for it...but most people who really want it, want it to drop, from their map...for them. So they keep grinding maps...and keep playing...for a minion. Furthermore, when they finally get it, it will feel like an accomplishment, even though technically, they could just buy it off the MB's (although having earned the gil is still an accomplishment) and/or gotten lucky with the RNG gods and got it on the first attempt. Throwing 5 dollars at SE though so you can have a minion, feels more empty.

Same thing with mounts. Having the Titan EX mount doesn't just show that you obviously beat Titan EX...but it shows that you likely beat him over and over and over again. Not only that, it's RARE...you didn't just spend some real life money, open your moogle mail and boom!, Mount, you did something in-game for it.

So there are people, who might really like a minion or mount on the cash shop....might even like it enough that it'd be 'worth it' to buy, but they still don't buy it because 'what's the point...all it shows is I had some extra cash to throw around' Or, they are just saddened because they feel like said mount/minion should really have been part of a quest/storyline within the game and not just a 'here you go' item with no real attachment to the story/lore. Some folk, really really love playing each and every little sidequest/story etc...and feel cheated when something like Odin's Mount didn't come from a side-story/quest. It's not that they don't want to pay...they just are sad to not see it realized to it's full lore and story potential.

Basically, for SOME people, that new shiny piece of coil gear is their 'look at what I accomplished!' piece...for others, it's a mount or a minion. We all play for different reasons...no one more valid than the other. But this is why you get people saying 'how would you feel if people could buy coil-level gear?' or 'how would you feel if you needed to pay for an endgame dungeon?' They aren't saying it because they hope you get screwed...they are saying it because for whatever reason, the content in the cash shop is as important to them, and they feel should be in game as part of their monthly subs as you feel about progression and it's related baubles.

Personally, I think we pay a monthly sub...and that everything mount/minion/etc should be 'included'. I have no issues with people paying for server/name/character changes...retainers are a grey area to me (they eat up extra memory/not everyone needs more than 2), but the 'story' stuff...and or things that could rightfully be tied to a story should be in-game w/o additional costs.

[Mogi]

snip

Then if you see something you like buy it and if you won't then that is up to you and all the others you say
this Affects SE makes the cash shop 100% up to us the players if you can't pay for something in it i'm sorry so they need to take it away from others who can?

[NyarukoW]

Not saying this didn't happen, but source pls?

Please search the forums threads. I do NOT need to cite for such obvious facts.

...
Having the Titan EX mount doesn't just show that you obviously beat Titan EX...but it shows that you likely beat him over and over and over again. Not only that, it's RARE...
.

But is SE selling the Titan EX mount on the cash shop? It seem SE makes it very clear what they sell and what they make available in game, and they maintain a very clear division of the two.

[DoctorPepper]

But is SE selling the Titan EX mount on the cash shop? It seem SE makes it very clear what they sell and what they make available in game, and they maintain a very clear division of the two.

This is the problem people have with the cash shop though, a lot of people would not be complaining (I'm sure some still would so to be clear I mean less people, not all) if the items were possible to obtain via time/gil. The clear division of the two excludes certain content from people based on their personal wealth. While I have no interest in vanity and therefore don't care about the current cash shop, it's very reasonable that people who play this game partially for the enjoyment of vanity would feel excluded if they don't have a lot of real money.

[Ladon]

OP doesn't apparently even understand the slippery slope argument.

The actual argument is the cash shop promotes the possibility that more and more items/features will be made available only in the cash shop rather than being available to achieve in game as content that is considered part of the monthly fee.

[Kinseykinz]

But is SE selling the Titan EX mount on the cash shop? It seem SE makes it very clear what they sell and what they make available in game, and they maintain a very clear division of the two.

The POINT was, if you are trying to collect ALL the mounts, the only way to do that would be to spend real cash to do so. So in order to have all the mounts, not only would you need to be able to raid at endgame level...and have the RNG gods favor you, but you'd need to spend additional money.

So if it was important to you to have ALL the mounts, you'd have to either pay up...or just accept you can't have them all. I don't know what content you enjoy doing, but I'm pretty sure there is something in game if they made you pay extra for it, and it was part of 'the main reason you play' you'd be upset about it.

[SpookyGhost]

Please search the forums threads. I do NOT need to cite for such obvious facts.

Eh? Usually when you list something as a fact you provide a source proving so, or at least showing evidence of it. Making claims (especially calling something a fact) and then not providing proof of said claims kind of hurts your argument quite a bit. I could search the forums, but I'm not really invested in this whole thing as I've found early on that both sides are brick walls - however, I assumed since you stated that it was a fact you would have sources to back that up. Then again, I don't really know what you mean by "players" - 2, 5, 10, hundreds? If it's a small enough group then I don't know why they should have an affect on the overall playerbase. Do you mean, after the Cash Shop was announced, players suggested items to be added into it? Or before that players wanted a Cash Shop with specific items and their wish was granted? Your fact is a bit open ended, which is why I asked for a source. If you can't provide one that's fine and all, but for future reference, making claims about "facts" and not providing sources is a surefire way to look like you don't know what you're talking about.

[Kinseykinz]

Not saying this didn't happen, but source pls?

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...y-RL-money-for from October, when 2.4 and the cash shop was announced.

http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...77#post2615777 from today, assuming based on the whole 'bonding ceremony' thing.

I hesitate linking either of these though because giving them active suggestions of 'things we'd pay extra for' seems beyond dumb. Suggest things you want...but hope they include them for your sub fee, at least then you stand a shot of getting what you want for the money you already pay

Also, the whole 'cash shop' thing started because people were willing (and strongly asked for, again via the forums), for the ability to purchase:
Additional Retainers (to be fair, this was a feature we were promised back in 1.0)
Fantasia's (there was a forum topic on this at 2.0 launch..but honestly, it's so old I can't easily find it)
Name Changes
Being able to 'buy a ticket' to get a friend on a 'closed' world

To be honest, before the 'cash shop', these tended to be the only things asked for by the playerbase...sure, I'm sure a handful of other random suggestions were made...but the only suggestions that had actual support in semi-sizable numbers (as sizable as the vocal few who post in these forums van be) were those I listed. So anyway, part of the rage (I believe), is because while many were fine with 'service' options being added to the Mog Station, they are far less fine with character and in-game items being added.

[Meltzeiferion]

Then if you see something you like buy it and if you won't then that is up to you and all the others you say
this Affects SE makes the cash shop 100% up to us the players if you can't pay for something in it i'm sorry so they need to take it away from others who can?

What you and a lot of others don't understand is that there are different play styles in an MMO. I personally actually kind of dislike dungeons, the treadmill is pretty meh (though I do it to keep up) and in fact I play more for a lot of side content. Now I'm not a major collector so I don't feel as much drive for buying these cash shop items or farming content a ton to get a minion/mount drop, but I am capable of understanding that for some other people, THAT is the play style they enjoy. There are people out there who play the game to get achievements, to collect 100% of the minions, 100% of the mounts and this is what they play the game for. Unfortunately for them, their style of play is being monetized. People like me, you and others can disregard it and just be like 'oh it's vanity and optional, who cares' but for these people it is the reason they play the game and now to continue with their goals they will have to perpetually pay extra money to the cash shop as more and more vanity is added to it.

What I have against it is that it is essentially monetizing a specific play style that should be just as valid to the game as any others, but now to get the SAME enjoyment from the game as others who play for different reasons, they have to put up extra cash any time things are added to the cash shop. That is if they don't decide it isn't worth it and just quit the game entirely.

Sure, for you, for me and plenty of others we can just decide not to buy these items or not as they are 'optional' for us, but consider the people in the community who will socialize, add to it and be there whose play styles are being harmed while you all just stand by and allow it because it isn't the way you play. I know it is hard to understand their mindset but you should at least give it a try.

I'm not really gonna argue about it a lot, I'm trying to keep myself mostly out of it but I feel some drive to try and explain to some people WHY people are so bothered by these sorts of things even if they don't understand or look down upon it.


Incidentally I also think as customers we SHOULD be trying to get the most we can for our money. Corporations are trying to make as much money off us as they can and the balance to that is that we SHOULD be trying to get the best deal we can. It really isn't a bad thing for people to fight against a cash shop, it's ok if you agree with it but do you seriously blame people for wanting to get the best deal for their money (sub fee) as possible without paying all this extra stuff?