F2P, P2W, and the "slippery slope" fallacy

[MilesSaintboroguh]

words

Reminds me of the days when people would collect Pokemon cards and took it seriously to the point where they'd be willing to spend tons of money to either have every card, have the best deck, or getting the rare cards.

[Jeckyl_Tesla]

This is such a simple problem, it baffles me at peoples complaints.

I love vanity items and I love raiding. I have no problem with the cash shop. This is how it works for me.

I look at the item.

Then I look at where I can get it.

If it's in game. I'll get it.

If it's on the cash shop, I'll look at if I can afford it. Then I'll get it if I can.

I'll then move on with my life.

^ That should affect nobody apart from myself. It's a bloody mount or a minion. It doesn't affect you if I have it. If it does, then it's simply envy. "He has it. I want it. I can't afford it."

Unless you're one of those people who looks down at others who spend their money on things they want when you're too stingy to do so.

[Nel_Celestine]

Reminds me of the days when people would collect Pokemon cards and took it seriously to the point where they'd be willing to spend tons of money to either have every card, have the best deck, or getting the rare cards.

reminds me of something else.

[Kinseykinz]

Thank you for linking my topic, but really you must not have actually read much of it before posting.

Anyways, the reason I made it was because the cash shop exists regardless of what some players what and not everything can be brought into the game lore wise without some people shitting a brick. (I'm looking at a lot of the crossover event flamers) Since they would only do crossover events with new titles or special events and many MANY of us have been fans for a long time, something that might get that kind of content into the game is the cash shop because it would be a revenue driver.

Besides, 3 minions, a single mount and some old Halloween costumes is not going to break everything for everyone when a single or even several people buy them.

You understand that patch 2.4 was only the FIRST patch to offer minions/mounts to be sold via the Mog Station right? That it doesn't take much for a reasonable person to then predict that they will continue adding more items to the cash shop each patch. So that by even 3.0, it might now be 6 minions and 3 mounts you can buy via the cash shop. Furthermore, it seems like they are continuing to test the waters so to speak, and adding more items/content/perks to the cash shop. So where does it end? And more importantly, why are they making certain things 'cash shop' and others not? Why is a bluebird minion a map reward but not Thancred?

As to past event items: You should NOT be able to buy them. I understand that once again, this potentially ticks the collectors off...but the reality is, if you didn't play during last years Starlight Celebration (for example), then you really shouldn't have the rewards. Same with 'limited time only FATES' and events. If you can buy them, they aren't 'limited' also...yeah not going to lie (not that I need a green pumpkin head), but I can earn the 3 dollars to buy one in RL faster than I can sit through the quests/FATE I'd have to have actually cleared to earn them. So yeah I guess there you go, selling the holiday gear is the first step to 'pay to win' Afterall, it's gear that was tied to a quest, the player didn't do but has anyway...so now anyone with the pumpkin head could feasibly say 'this ruined the value of my clearing of the event' Yes, I realize it's just a pumpkin head...and no real benefit is attached to it...but again, BEFORE the cash shop option, the only way you'd have the hat, is to have actually played the content...no matter how 'easy' said content actually was, you did it.

As to the 'this way they can allow cross-over items w/o freaking out the lore purists' Again. Totally false arguement. Why? Because if they think the story/lore doesn't fit the game...they sure as heck don't think the gear/items/vanity do. If anything, they'd prefer SE actually tried to write a mini-story/lore episode to 'explain' the abnomaly than just go with 'some people were willing to buy Yuna's dress and hair so we thought, why not profit on it.' To be even more specific, the main reason some people were against the Lightning Returns crossover, wasn't just 'why the hell would she be in this game' but rather....'come on SE, this is obviously a thinly veiled commercial for your new game.'

Still, at the end of the day, if it doesn't somehow fit into this games lore/feel it really SHOULD NOT be added....via cash shop or otherwise. Because, either way, it still ends up in our world...and just because you're okay with it, doesn't mean those around you are. Everything added, no matter how it's added, should have a genuine place within this game....not be an after-thought and/or a money grab on the part of SE.

[Nel_Celestine]

Still, at the end of the day, if it doesn't somehow fit into this games lore/feel it really SHOULD NOT be added....via cash shop or otherwise.

-People bitched about Lightning
-People bitched about Dragon Quest
-People bitched about Shantotto even TODAY

Best go back in time and remove Crystal Tower then because it was part of FF3 that wasn't part of 14 and they changed to to make it lore friendly and fit. If they do the same with say, tower of Babel (which would be a cool expac continuation of the series kinda deal) we'll prolly get the same shoe-horn in.

even if it's still 6 minions and 3 mounts by the time of 3.0 (which is possible I don't deny) there are currently over 100 minions in game right now. (101 i do believe) so currently it's 3/101 minions. People need to stop over exaggerating the extent of these things and predicting nothing but doom and despair.

[Kinseykinz]

-People bitched about Lightning
-People bitched about Dragon Quest
-People bitched about Shantotto even TODAY

Best go back in time and remove Crystal Tower then because it was part of FF3 that wasn't part of 14 and they changed to to make it lore friendly and fit. If they do the same with say, tower of Babel (which would be a cool expac continuation of the series kinda deal) we'll prolly get the same shoe-horn in.

even if it's still 6 minions and 3 mounts by the time of 3.0 (which is possible I don't deny) there are currently over 100 minions in game right now. (101 i do believe) so currently it's 3/101 minions. People need to stop over exaggerating the extent of these things and predicting nothing but doom and despair.

Look, I didn't say I personally had a problem with the Lightning Fate....considering that THIS game was billed as the 'FAN Service' MMO, I not only expect cross-over things to happen, but I actually enjoy seeing how they use things from past games into this one. That is actually part of my enjoyment and why I personally play.

I was saying if they stop adding valid reasons for content to be in the game (or start adding things to the game they can't figure out a way to justify), then we shouldn't have those things. Whether the item is added via cash shop or standard sub, is irrelevant, if it doesn't belong in game according to SE, then they shouldn't sell it on the cash shop just to make a buck...which so far, they at least haven't done...everything for sale on the Mog Station somehow fits into the game...but you suggested the cash shop could be a way of implementing content that otherwise wouldn't fit which is why I said what I did

As to how many items are cash shop vs. in game.
It doesn't matter if it's 3 or 300. What matters more is the WHY isn't it just part of the game. Why did they decide THIS specific item they should sell for extra money?. Why not make it even a veterans reward (which also in a round about way encourages us to keep spending btw), Why do some items make it into the game/story/etc and others are basically pimped out? I'd THINK if the Odin Mount was in fact actually worth 24 dollars, he should have his own questline in the story (I mean geez, that's likely half the cost of the upcoming expansion pack).

[Xhominid]

Buying a physical item and receiving a virtual bonus (typically a minion) is not the same as buying just the virtual item.

Man, these topics really do all end up having the same discussions, don't they?

Did you not read what she was talking about?
She stated that some people would want every minion and mount, so if they come from Squenix merchandise that's not available ingame, it is the exact same problem as them being exclusive to the Cash Shop. Either way, they are not avaible on any level in the game and as a completionist, you are forced to buy that merch, it's THE EXACT SAME PROBLEM, STOP ACTING AS IF IT'S DIFFERENT BECAUSE YOU GET OTHER STUFF!

[Spellbinder]

Did you not read what she was talking about?
She stated that some people would want every minion and mount, so if they come from Squenix merchandise that's not available ingame, it is the exact same problem as them being exclusive to the Cash Shop. Either way, they are not avaible on any level in the game and as a completionist, you are forced to buy that merch, it's THE EXACT SAME PROBLEM, STOP ACTING AS IF IT'S DIFFERENT BECAUSE YOU GET OTHER STUFF!

Genuine question. If it's the same problem, why is there no forum outrage over the mounts, minions, and attire received from the collector's edition (physical or digital download) and attendance to the fan festival? Why was it okay to sweep those under the rug, and not the handful of minions in the cash shop?

One could argue you're getting something for the physical collector's edition, but what about the digital? You could attend the fan festival for the attire, but you could also get it by paying for the premium stream to see video recordings and information that inevitably ended up on youtube and reddit.

Why was there no outrage over the fact that the soundtracks also included minions?

Should the forums break out into war every time they release merchandise (cash shop or otherwise) that includes some sort of digital in-game counterpart?

[MilesSaintboroguh]

Don't forget the fit people threw over the Moogle Suit; first people whined that you were "forced" to spend a few hundred bucks to make the trip and attend the event to get the item, then more people whined louder when Square revealed you can get the suit for $20 by buying the premium livestream, "devaluing" the suit for those who went to the event in person.

[Grey_Cain]

I'm ashamed to admit that I have Paid 2 Win.

I first paid to have access to the 1.0 open beta and early access, and to receive the full version of the game when it was officially released. Those people playing for free in the closed beta didn't have to pay a dime until it came time for the official release. I'm sure many quit purely because they didn't want there to be an option for people pay to be able to play and eventually win the game. But I continued paying for my subs right up until they stopped charging for them, and then I paid again when they started charging for the subs again. Therefore, I have paid 2 win.

Then I paid again when 2.0 came out. I was in the closed beta, but I still paid for the Collector's Edition to get all the bonuses. Again, I wasn't able to beat the game in closed beta or even open beta, and so I purchased the game, gave the PS3 copy sans bonus item codes to my brother, and began paying for subs which I am still paying even now. I am still working on completing all content in the game (one day I'll break you Titan EX -_- ), but I am sure that those people who completed the game in beta and all the new content in the free weekends and such would mock me for having to pay 2 win just to complete all the content. I wonder how those beta players feel about new players having access to all the past content that they had? I imagine they'd be pretty annoyed that all the content that was available in the beta has been made available to new players, since people are able to pay for that past content now.

During the time I've played the game, I've received subscription rewards that I could only have received because I've paid 2 win with my subscription. I also bought a house recently with in-game money, but I could not have obtained that money had I not paid for a subscription and completed all of my daily quests every day for 6 months. Clearly, obtaining my house required that I pay 2 win.

I've got a bunch of minions, but I never really went out of my way to collect most of them. I recently spent real money buying the Yda minion, had her out a few times, and now leave her in whatever Pokemon hell that minions go to when they're not summoned. But that's okay because all I really wanted was an Yda minion of my own, and now I have her. That means I've won now, and I paid 2 win.

Now that we know that Dark Knight is coming, I have already decided that I will buy Sleipnir when I have access to Dark Knight (or earlier if they have a sale in the store; shut up, I can hope), and Sleipnir will be the mount that I dedicate to Dark Knight's sole use. Since having that mount with that job is my sole driving concern for the future at the moment, I have even planned to pay 2 win.

When the expansion arrives, I am looking forward to receiving that content and eventually beating the expansion's storyline. I don't see any option to get it for free through another beta, though, so I guess I'll be paying 2 win the expansion as well.

I can hardly log into the game every day now without being reminded of my shame. I have paid 2 win, and for the foreseeable future I will continue to pay 2 win. It was such a nice F2P game before they added all the P2W mechanics. Too bad I can't pay to see the RMT die in a fire, though. I guess I can't P2W everything. :sadface: