Dragoon buffs and Ninja nerfs coming Dec 9th in patch 2.45

[Instrumentality]

Yes, the NIN has more flexibility, and is less likely to lose DPS either way, but that doesn't actually address the *power* of the CC available to it.

Lol in what world are off-gcd binds and stuns/silences with minimal resource cost weaker than on-GCD massively wasteful resource cost moves? Just by virtue of being off-gcd they're amazing compared to any on-gcd move. The only other class that is as well off is bard.

[Viridiana]

Lol in what world are off-gcd binds and stuns/silences with minimal resource cost weaker than on-GCD massively wasteful resource cost moves? Just by virtue of being off-gcd they're amazing compared to any on-gcd move. The only other class that is as well off is bard.

Yep, that's why people made sure to bring MNK to their Mythflox runs: That oGCD stun every 40 seconds is amazing. What's that? They actually used WHM Holy spam or SCH's Shadow Flare? Are you sure? I mean, both of those are GCD abilities. . .

Frankly, the only class that's worse off is BRD, because their CC ability has a lower potency at the same CD, nevermind that NIN can make Jugulate into a stun. Remember, this is evaluating them only as CC moves, not as DPS moves.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Except that NIN CC is worse than that of almost every other job. Again, I'm not saying it actually needs improvement. As far as I can tell, it's fully functional. But it's not equal to that of the other classes.

Are there situations where Hyoton could save a life (or group)? Sure, but there are more where Tri-disaster could.
Is it less of a sacrifice to have the NIN silence instead of the MNK? Sure, but that doesn't mean the MNK doesn't have a stronger silence.
I'm saying that NIN's CC ability, while fully serviceable, is less than that of the other classes. Is it unfair to compare it to Shield Bash? Maybe, but if I wanted to be really unfair I'd compare it to Holy.

The reason that DPS classes don't usually CC is because, in the cases where CC is essential, tanks and healers often provide better CC. Stuns? Let the PLD or WHM do it. Blind? Let the PLD do it. Silence? PLD/BRD rotation. Bind? SMN. All that's left for the NIN/MNK/DRG/WAR/SCH is to be ready in case someone screwed up. Yes, the NIN has more flexibility, and is less likely to lose DPS either way, but that doesn't actually address the *power* of the CC available to it.

And here you go dragging in more irrelevant classes to this topic. Healers? Seriously? What's next? That Black Mages have apocatastasis and Ninja's don't?

You're making less and less sense. Tri-disaster could save a situation? There is only one instance where a single target bind would make or break an encounter and that used to be SCOB Turn 2. After all the nerfing binding isn't even necessary any more from any class. Be it melee DPS - as which was the topic originally - or some other class.

Monk has AoE silence, yay? But there is not a single occasion that AoE silence is necessary. All encounters where silence is even needed only requires single target silence.

And healers on stun duty? That's so unreliable, I guess White Mage have the worst stun capacity because it's near impossible to time right then!

Ninja Silence or Stun does it's job just like any other class: It silences/It stuns. At least Ninja has the access to both of them. With your logic, Dragoon and Bard CC are the worst compared to Ninja and Monks then because they only have one type that's remotely relevant to endgame content. Have I mentioned yet that nearly every boss is either immune to stun/silence or designed in a way you can do without? (4-man dungeon bosses)

Yep, that's why people made sure to bring MNK to their Mythflox runs: That oGCD stun every 40 seconds is amazing. What's that? They actually used WHM Holy spam or SCH's Shadow Flare? Are you sure? I mean, both of those are GCD abilities. . .

Which also brought up more irrelevant information to "the versatility of ninja" within this topic
Which is also another too specific scenario to compare. 40s oGCD stun? You don't need a monk for that. Considering there's always a tank around, a warrior or paladin can solo stun anything in Brayflox - or other 4 man content for that matter - perfectly fine

[Viridiana]

And here you go dragging in more irrelevant classes to this topic. Healers? Seriously? What's next? That Black Mages have apocatastasis and Ninja's don't?

I'm not arguing about utility. I'm arguing about how effective CC abilities are when used as CC.

You're making less and less sense. Tri-disaster could save a situation? There is only one instance where a single target bind would make or break an encounter and that used to be SCOB Turn 2. After all the nerfing binding isn't even necessary any more from any class. Be it melee DPS - as which was the topic originally - or some other class.

Monk has AoE silence, yay? But there is not a single occasion that AoE silence is necessary. All encounters where silence is even needed only requires single target silence.

And healers on stun duty? That's so unreliable, I guess White Mage have the worst stun capacity because it's near impossible to time right then!

Tri-disaster works in any place that a bind is needed. So, yes, it can be used in T7 if you needed to. It can also be used as an AOE bind which is, frankly, the only place I've heard of it being used (Garuda Hard). The fact that it's an AOE bind means that it's a more powerful CC than Hyoton, which is only single target. And while, yes, there are few places that binds are mechanically designed to be needed, you seem to be ignoring that a bind, like any CC, can give players breathing room when things are about to go south.

When I said that MNK silence is stronger than NIN silence, I was referring to the fact that it can be done every 6 seconds until you run out of TP. Yes, that's wasteful of TP; yes, it's a DPS loss. It's still stronger CC.

And yeah, I guess there are zero situations where an AOE stun would be useful. I mean, it's not like WHMs were using it to help tanks survive speedruns or anything. . .

Ninja Silence or Stun does it's job just like any other class: It silences/It stuns. At least Ninja has the access to both of them. With your logic, Dragoon and Bard CC are the worst compared to Ninja and Monks then because they only have one type that's remotely relevant to endgame content. Have I mentioned yet that nearly every boss is either immune to stun/silence or designed in a way you can do without? (4-man dungeon bosses)

Yep, it does. And that's why I'm not upset that it's on the weak end of the spectrum. DRG, while more limited in options, has better CC skills. Still not tank/healer tier, but I'd say middle of DPS tier. BRD I've already said has weaker CC than NIN (same or worse CC options with the same or worse CDs).

Which is also another too specific scenario to compare. 40s oGCD stun? You don't need a monk for that. Considering there's always a tank around, a warrior or paladin can solo stun anything in Brayflox - or other 4 man content for that matter - perfectly fine

My point

Your head

Yes, you're right, you don't bring a MNK for a 40s oGCD stun. You bring a WHM for 600 AOE potency and 7 seconds of stunlock on the AOE trash pulls, because you're trying to finish the first two bosses in five minutes. Or you bring a SCH for Shadow Flare. Either way, you're counting on healer CC to help the tank survive, because DPS CC just isn't that good.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

I'm not arguing about utility. I'm arguing about how effective CC abilities are when used as CC.

Ninja silence and stun work the same as any other CC ability: It stuns and the target builds up resistance. Silence only silences for a brief moment like any other silence. it's just as effective as any other ability. It's not like Ninja stun gets resisted after two appliances or that Ninja Silence can fail to silence.

Tri-disaster works in any place that a bind is needed. So, yes, it can be used in T7 if you needed to. It can also be used as an AOE bind which is, frankly, the only place I've heard of it being used (Garuda Hard). The fact that it's an AOE bind means that it's a more powerful CC than Hyoton, which is only single target. And while, yes, there are few places that binds are mechanically designed to be needed, you seem to be ignoring that a bind, like any CC, can give players breathing room when things are about to go south.

Yet another unrealistic as well as too rare of an occasion of "AoE" bind being effective. Tri-disaster AoE range is 5 yalm. The only case where the targets are small enough to be within 5 yalm range and can be bound is in Garuda HM and it's not even necessary. Turn 7 used to be the only encounter where binding would be important. Now that it's been nerfed to the ground, binding is as useless as ever.

When I said that MNK silence is stronger than NIN silence, I was referring to the fact that it can be done every 6 seconds until you run out of TP. Yes, that's wasteful of TP; yes, it's a DPS loss. It's still stronger CC.

Can be done every 6 seconds? Perhaps, but for the remaining window within those 6 seconds they can't freely silence. I still won't call it stronger CC. More frequent, perhaps. But you even pointed out all the down sides yourself of this fact.

And yeah, I guess there are zero situations where an AOE stun would be useful. I mean, it's not like WHMs were using it to help tanks survive speedruns or anything. . .

And again, you're bringing in a healer that does a role a ninja is not.

Yep, it does. And that's why I'm not upset that it's on the weak end of the spectrum. DRG, while more limited in options, has better CC skills. Still not tank/healer tier, but I'd say middle of DPS tier. BRD I've already said has weaker CC than NIN (same or worse CC options with the same or worse CDs).

You're contradicting yourself on so many fronts here...
"Dragoon has limited options but better CC skills". Stun gets resisted by overuse and will no longer be a reliable CC ability. If not used at all, this is a major DPS loss - Which, I will repeat again, is never an issue for Ninja's. Add in the fact that tanks are usually on stun duty, this would mean dragoon has zero contribution for crowd control. Which wouldn't even make it middle of "DPS tier" as you refered.
"Bard has weaker CC than NIN". It's interesting how hellbend you are about Summoner being able to bind, but completely ignore the fact Bards can bind as well. Fact: Bard's Shadowbind was unconditionally better than Summoner's tri-disaster for Turn 7. Oh it's not an AoE? You forgot to mention Black Mage here.

Yes, you're right, you don't bring a MNK for a 40s oGCD stun. You bring a WHM for 600 AOE potency and 7 seconds of stunlock on the AOE trash pulls, because you're trying to finish the first two bosses in five minutes. Or you bring a SCH for Shadow Flare. Either way, you're counting on healer CC to help the tank survive, because DPS CC just isn't that good.

And again you're dragging healers into a discussion where it began as DPS vs DPS comparison. There's also misinformation here, but I won't go into this because it's not even relevant to the topic. It also concerns casual content where CC has nearly no importance.

[Viridiana]

Ninja silence and stun work the same as any other CC ability: It stuns and the target builds up resistance. Silence only silences for a brief moment like any other silence. it's just as effective as any other ability. It's not like Ninja stun gets resisted after two appliances or that Ninja Silence can fail to silence.

Have I ever said otherwise?

Yet another unrealistic as well as too rare of an occasion of "AoE" bind being effective. Tri-disaster AoE range is 5 yalm. The only case where the targets are small enough to be within 5 yalm range and can be bound is in Garuda HM and it's not even necessary. Turn 7 used to be the only encounter where binding would be important. Now that it's been nerfed to the ground, binding is as useless as ever.

Look, I'm freely granting that Tri-disaster (and Freeze, for that matter) are extremely rarely used. That's true of all binds. T7 was the only place where binding was almost necessary, but it was still useful in Garuda Hard at lower gear levels where the options were to break off from Garuda to kill plumes or die. . .or just bind them and not worry about it.

Can be done every 6 seconds? Perhaps, but for the remaining window within those 6 seconds they can't freely silence. I still won't call it stronger CC. More frequent, perhaps. But you even pointed out all the down sides yourself of this fact.

Yep, the ability to control as well as any two other classes put together isn't a stronger control.

And again, you're bringing in a healer that does a role a ninja is not.

But they both CC, and the healer does it better. The tank does it better, too, but in a different way than either the healer or DPS.

You're contradicting yourself on so many fronts here...
"Dragoon has limited options but better CC skills". Stun gets resisted by overuse and will no longer be a reliable CC ability. If not used at all, this is a major DPS loss - Which, I will repeat again, is never an issue for Ninja's. Add in the fact that tanks are usually on stun duty, this would mean dragoon has zero contribution for crowd control. Which wouldn't even make it middle of "DPS tier" as you refered.
"Bard has weaker CC than NIN". It's interesting how hellbend you are about Summoner being able to bind, but completely ignore the fact Bards can bind as well. Fact: Bard's Shadowbind was unconditionally better than Summoner's tri-disaster for Turn 7. Oh it's not an AoE? You forgot to mention Black Mage here.

Q: Why are tanks usually on stun duty?

A: Because they're better at stunning than the DPS are.

Q: Why does the DRG have zero CC contribution to the group?

A: Because the tank does it better.

Q: Why is the DRG doing so little DPS?

A: Because it can't use two of its best abilities without getting in the tank's way. (joke answer: because it's eating dirt)

Or, y'know, you could actually let the DRG do some of the stunning. It's not like the tank *has to* be the one stunning Ifrit or the add on Levi.

And yep, BRD can bind a single target on a 40 second CD. Sure, it works better than Tri-disaster in T7, even though neither of them were really needed. But if you need to bind more than one target or more often than every 40 seconds, BRD loses to SMN and BLM (and potentially NIN).

And yes, I keep forgetting BLM. Similar binding ability to SMN, similar heavy ability. . .oh, and a 30s duration AOE sleep that blows most other CC out of the water.

And again you're dragging healers into a discussion where it began as DPS vs DPS comparison. There's also misinformation here, but I won't go into this because it's not even relevant to the topic. It also concerns casual content where CC has nearly no importance.

After you dragged in tanks to what used to be a DPS vs DPS comparison. And it's nice to see that seven seconds of AOE stuns has no importance. Tell that to the people wiping in Bray.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

Have I ever said otherwise?

Yes, by constantly claiming it's weaker.

Look, I'm freely granting that Tri-disaster (and Freeze, for that matter) are extremely rarely used. That's true of all binds. T7 was the only place where binding was almost necessary, but it was still useful in Garuda Hard at lower gear levels where the options were to break off from Garuda to kill plumes or die. . .or just bind them and not worry about it.

Yet another unrealistic situation. This also prevents other classes from using specific abilities or spells that would increase their DPS without releasing the feathers.

Yep, the ability to control as well as any two other classes put together isn't a stronger control.

Ninja fits in that same category. Add in the fact that there's no encounter where you need to silence more than twice a minute.

But they both CC, and the healer does it better. The tank does it better, too, but in a different way than either the healer or DPS.

Healers and DPS also both deal DPS. But the DPS deal more damage. With that logic anyway.

Q: Why are tanks usually on stun duty?

A: Because they're better at stunning than the DPS are.

No, The proper answer would be because a tank is always present while another class with an instant stun ability is not always present

Q: Why does the DRG have zero CC contribution to the group?

A: Because the tank does it better.

Q: Why is the DRG doing so little DPS?

A: Because it can't use two of its best abilities without getting in the tank's way. (joke answer: because it's eating dirt)

And this started as Ninja having "inferior" CC. At least you're admitting Ninja's not suffering from any of this like other melee classes are

And yep, BRD can bind a single target on a 40 second CD. Sure, it works better than Tri-disaster in T7, even though neither of them were really needed. But if you need to bind more than one target or more often than every 40 seconds, BRD loses to SMN and BLM (and potentially NIN).

You don't even seem to understand why a Bard's shadowbind works better than a Summoner's, or a black mage's, bind version.

And yes, I keep forgetting BLM. Similar binding ability to SMN, similar heavy ability. . .oh, and a 30s duration AOE sleep that blows most other CC out of the water.

More obsolete CC being brought to the table

After you dragged in tanks to what used to be a DPS vs DPS comparison.

I brought Paladins into the discussion because:

What? No. The day a NIN can solo-silence T2, or solo-stun Ifrit or Levi's add, or solo-bind feathers on Garuda, then I'll believe that it has comparable CC to other classes.

You pointed at it in the first place

And it's nice to see that seven seconds of AOE stuns has no importance. Tell that to the people wiping in Bray.

Actually, yes, AoE stun has no importance. Because scholars can speed run casual content as well