Dragoon buffs and Ninja nerfs coming Dec 9th in patch 2.45

[Viridiana]

Well, you mentioned it yourself:

Conclusion: CC abilities are rarely kept for it's actual purpose: Crowd Control. So again: It's comparable with other classes.

What? No. The day a NIN can solo-silence T2, or solo-stun Ifrit or Levi's add, or solo-bind feathers on Garuda, then I'll believe that it has comparable CC to other classes.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

What? No. The day a NIN can solo-silence T2, or solo-stun Ifrit or Levi's add, or solo-bind feathers on Garuda, then I'll believe that it has comparable CC to other classes.

Paladins and bards can't solo silence T2, it always happened in a tandem. If monks did it they lose a ton of DPS - Which a Ninja won't lose in similar numbers.
Paladin is the only reliable class to solo stun eruptions in ifrit or levi adds. Meanwhile no one else should be stunning at all. This includes monks with Shoulder Tackle and Steel Peak and Dragoon's Leg Sweep and Spineshatter dive. This means that other two comparable melees lose TWO damage abilities while Ninja only loses one for such occasion. Also: Monks can only use one stun at 10y distance. So much like Arm of the Destroyer, they'll lose DPS if they try to stun it like this.
The more popular meta for Garuda EX is to provoke the spiny plume, rather than to "bind" it. The only one who -could- do this is Bard without damaging and potentially killing the Spiny Plume. But this may cause more harm than good depending on who has the spiny and where it is located.

[Zophar]

Paladin is the only reliable class to solo stun eruptions in ifrit or levi adds. Meanwhile no one else should be stunning at all. This includes monks with Shoulder Tackle and Steel Peak and Dragoon's Leg Sweep and Spineshatter dive. This means that other two comparable melees lose TWO damage abilities while Ninja only loses one for such occasion.

Thank you for actually pointing this out. This is something that almost nobody considers at all. Granted, at this point in the game, there are few scenarios where stun resistance is a concern, but they do exist, and likely will again. And whether or not nin loses any dps at all depends on if they're actually on stun duty at all. If not, nin just changes stances to turn stun into silence, and keeps on trucking. This seems like a minimal boost to dps, but when you add it to the fact that other job's stun moves, suck as spineshatter dive and leg sweep, are lost completely, the gap widens.

[Viridiana]

snip

I never said they wouldn't lose DPS. In fact, it's pretty much assumed that anyone doing CC is going to lose DPS. A MNK solo silencing T2 is losing more than most, but their CC is still unparalleled in that regard. And yes, PLD has an unrivaled stun capability in Ifrit and Leviathan. And no, I was talking about SMN binding all of the feathers in Garuda Hard, which was a common tactic at lower gear levels. Thanks, though, for tacitly admitting that NIN CC is worse than that of the other classes.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

I never said they wouldn't lose DPS. In fact, it's pretty much assumed that anyone doing CC is going to lose DPS. A MNK solo silencing T2 is losing more than most, but their CC is still unparalleled in that regard. And yes, PLD has an unrivaled stun capability in Ifrit and Leviathan. And no, I was talking about SMN binding all of the feathers in Garuda Hard, which was a common tactic at lower gear levels. Thanks, though, for tacitly admitting that NIN CC is worse than that of the other classes.

I never said they were worse. They just suffer far less DPS loss compared to other classes - If anything, the loss is nowhere near a monk or dragoon when abilities are to be held back for CC purposes. In fact, they have it far easier compared to other DPS classes. Zophar mentioned it before: Not allowed to stun? Switch poisons! And suddenly you have an extra off CD dps ability while others aren't allowed to use it.

[Viridiana]

I never said they were worse. They just suffer far less DPS loss compared to other classes - If anything, the loss is nowhere near a monk or dragoon when abilities are to be held back for CC purposes. In fact, they have it far easier compared to other DPS classes. Zophar mentioned it before: Not allowed to stun? Switch poisons! And suddenly you have an extra off CD dps ability while others aren't allowed to use it.

. . .

I've already freely admitted that the DPS impact (or non-impact) for NIN is negligible unless you're for some crazy reason using Hyoton. I don't know why you keep mentioning the DPS aspect of it and completely ignoring my actual point, which is that NIN has less CC capability than almost any other class.

[Lyrica_Ashtine]

. . .

I've already freely admitted that the DPS impact (or non-impact) for NIN is negligible unless you're for some crazy reason using Hyoton. I don't know why you keep mentioning the DPS aspect of it and completely ignoring my actual point, which is that NIN has less CC capability than almost any other class.

And I'm saying ninja's don't have inferior CC. Which is a point I am making you have failed to notice.

You're saying it's crazy for a ninja to use Hyoton, but use Summoner's Tri-disaster for example
You're also saying Monks have infinite silence capability, but it's a gigantic DPS loss. Much like Hyoton. Meanwhile, dragoon's can't even silence
You're saying Ninja's have terrible CC and use a paladin's Shield Bash as comparison

And I keep bringing up the DPS topic because CC abilities on DPS classes are rarely used for crowd control purposes. Same applies to ninja's. If there are reasons you aren't allowed to stun, Ninja's suffer less from this restriction. Ninja's CC isn't inferior. It has it's advantages and disadvantages like other CC abilities on DPS classes. But it's also far easier to use/less restricted, which the person I have quoted on in the first place failed to realise.

[Viridiana]

And I'm saying ninja's don't have inferior CC. Which is a point I am making you have failed to notice.

You're saying it's crazy for a ninja to use Hyoton, but use Summoner's Tri-disaster for example
You're also saying Monks have infinite silence capability, but it's a gigantic DPS loss. Much like Hyoton. Meanwhile, dragoon's can't even silence
You're saying Ninja's have terrible CC and use a paladin's Shield Bash as comparison

And I keep bringing up the DPS topic because CC abilities on DPS classes are rarely used for crowd control purposes. Same applies to ninja's. If there are reasons you aren't allowed to stun, Ninja's suffer less from this restriction. Ninja's CC isn't inferior. It has it's advantages and disadvantages like other CC abilities on DPS classes. But it's also far easier to use/less restricted, which the person I have quoted on in the first place failed to realise.

Except that NIN CC is worse than that of almost every other job. Again, I'm not saying it actually needs improvement. As far as I can tell, it's fully functional. But it's not equal to that of the other classes.

Are there situations where Hyoton could save a life (or group)? Sure, but there are more where Tri-disaster could.
Is it less of a sacrifice to have the NIN silence instead of the MNK? Sure, but that doesn't mean the MNK doesn't have a stronger silence.
I'm saying that NIN's CC ability, while fully serviceable, is less than that of the other classes. Is it unfair to compare it to Shield Bash? Maybe, but if I wanted to be really unfair I'd compare it to Holy.

The reason that DPS classes don't usually CC is because, in the cases where CC is essential, tanks and healers often provide better CC. Stuns? Let the PLD or WHM do it. Blind? Let the PLD do it. Silence? PLD/BRD rotation. Bind? SMN. All that's left for the NIN/MNK/DRG/WAR/SCH is to be ready in case someone screwed up. Yes, the NIN has more flexibility, and is less likely to lose DPS either way, but that doesn't actually address the *power* of the CC available to it.

[Giantbane]

Meanwhile no one else should be stunning at all. This includes monks with Shoulder Tackle and Steel Peak and Dragoon's Leg Sweep and Spineshatter dive. This means that other two comparable melees lose TWO damage abilities while Ninja only loses one for such occasion.

The ninja doesn't lose *ANY* damage abilities in such occasions. Ninja can use Kiss of the Viper (instead of Kiss of the Wasp) and Jugulate won't stun, allowing them to use it freely.