Dragoon, under the shadow of Ninja

[Vodomir]

Any good DRG can "juke" the positional requirement by factoring latency and anticipating the boss turning. If you miss heavy thrust it's your own fault.

Of course it's my fault, as I can easily anticipate things such as:

- the tank suddenly turning the boss
- tank losing aggro to someone so that the boss turns around
- tank dying so that the boss turns around
- bosses turning around for certain skills in a unpredictable pattern

Guess I just need to dust of that crystal ball to become a better DRG such as you are.

[SeraviEdalborez]

Of course it's my fault, as I can easily anticipate things such as:

- the tank suddenly turning the boss
- tank losing aggro to someone so that the boss turns around
- tank dying so that the boss turns around
- bosses turning around for certain skills in a unpredictable pattern

Guess I just need to dust of that crystal ball to become a better DRG such as you are.

-You can predict that
-It's someone's fault, but you can be watching hate meters too.
-You're worried about DPS at this point?
-"unpredictable" lol

[Vodomir]

-You can predict that

Nope, you can't always predict that. There are tanks that like to run circles around bosses. And there are encounters that require tanks to move the boss in reaction to certain actions that are not on a fixed pattern (e.g. Melusine fight when the ground segment of the tank lights up and he moves out of it).

-It's someone's fault, but you can be watching hate meters too.

Yeah, cause aside from watching for encounter mechanics, my own rotation, my positioning, the tank's positioning and his probable "always predictable" movements and my own hate meter, I have plenty of time not only to watch for the hate meters of other players, but also for their positioning, so when the mobs turns around, I also know which direction it will turn and move, so I can hit my HT and keep my rotation without any delay. Pretty sure that's an easy task to accomplish.

-You're worried about DPS at this point?

I'm actually not worried, but someone boldly stated that missing a positional is always the Dragoons fault. Just listing examples where it's not the DRG's fault.

-"unpredictable" lol

Not all bosses have strictly timed patterns and even if some actions are predictable, you can't always adjust your rotation not to lose DPS, as your rotation dictates when to refesh HT or ID for optimum DPS. E.g. Melusine turning around for fireballs. Of course you could hold hold HT or ID until she's done with it, but holding those skills back is also a DPS loss over re-applying them at the correct timing.

[Alistaire]

Of course it's my fault, as I can easily anticipate things such as:

- the tank suddenly turning the boss
- tank losing aggro to someone so that the boss turns around
- tank dying so that the boss turns around
- bosses turning around for certain skills in a unpredictable pattern

Guess I just need to dust of that crystal ball to become a better DRG such as you are.

Your sarcasm is unjustified, your points hold no merit at all. Yes if a tank turns the boss you lose dps, so would a mnk, and that's the tank's fault. Tank losing agro? Very rarely is that not a sign of a bad tank. Tank dying? If the fight matters at all then there's a very good chance nothing you do matters at that point. As for "bosses turning around...in a unpredictable pattern"? This game just simply doesn't have that.

[Leonus]

Your sarcasm is unjustified, your points hold no merit at all. Yes if a tank turns the boss you lose dps, so would a mnk, and that's the tank's fault. Tank losing agro? Very rarely is that not a sign of a bad tank. Tank dying? If the fight matters at all then there's a very good chance nothing you do matters at that point. As for "bosses turning around...in a unpredictable pattern"? This game just simply doesn't have that.

Mnk looses dps when the boss is turned by the tank, but depending where the drg is at in their rotation the mnk does not loose the same amount of dps that the drg us going to loose.

I don't know why people think that the boss being turned a critical points for drg is comparable to mnk.

[Vodomir]

Your sarcasm is unjustified, your points hold no merit at all. Yes if a tank turns the boss you lose dps, so would a mnk, and that's the tank's fault. Tank losing agro? Very rarely is that not a sign of a bad tank. Tank dying? If the fight matters at all then there's a very good chance nothing you do matters at that point. As for "bosses turning around...in a unpredictable pattern"? This game just simply doesn't have that.

I would really appreciate if you at least tried to inform yourself what the initial discussion was all about prior to giving answers like this.

Yes, a Monk does also lose DPS if the tank turns the mob around, but the discussion was Ninja (doesn't have mandatory positionals to begin with, so it really doesn't matter which direction he is attacking from) vs. DRG ... so where does that Monk argument fall into place? I mean, even the thread's title has it. This thread is not about Monks.

And the discussion was also not about how good or bad a tank may be ... it was about the assumption that not hitting as positional is 100% the DRG's own fault, so I brought up some examples where it's not the DRG's fault (as you have already admitted yourself, it may for example be the tank's fault, so I would say, you actually do give my points some merit).

As for the tank dying scenario, in a 8 man raid scenario a dead tank doesn't automatically equal a wipe, as the OT can often fill in until the situation is recovered. Whether that's actually the case or not doesn't really matter, as my point still holds true, that not hitting a positional in this scenario is not the DRG's own fault.

As for "bosses turning around...in a unpredictable pattern"? This game just simply doesn't have that.

Then we may be playing different games, e.g. in the last boss encounter in Quarn HM the boss will cast "Light of Anathema" on random players in a more or less non-predicatable pattern, unless you have some magic way to tell exactly when the boss is going to use this skill and whom he will be targetting.

And even in fights with predictable patterns, if your rotation dicates to refresh either HT or ID just when the boss is about to to some of the predictable turns, you are left with three options:

- hit HT or ID regardless and take the risk of not hitting the positionals (thus messing up your rotation and forcing you to redo the skill --> huge DPS loss)
- delay your application of HT/ID until the boss is facing the tank again (again a DPS loss)
- use filler attacks until the boss is facing the tank again (DPS loss again)

So there are three ways to lose DPS, none of which are the DRG's fault.

And there are also fights where bosses need to be moved by a tank in non-predictable ways. Examples (this list is not complete):

- Melusine needs to be moved out of glowing circle segments (and there doesn't seem to be a fixed pattern for which segment will light up next, thus the required tank/boss movement is not exactly 'predictable')
- last boss Quarn HM, tank needs to move boss a lot and there's usually more than one safe spot the tank may move to ... unless you are communicating with the tank (which rarely happens in roulette groups), there's no way to predict the tanks's movement and therefore the boss' movement as well

[SeraviEdalborez]

Then we may be playing different games, e.g. in the last boss encounter in Quarn HM the boss will cast "Light of Anathema" on random players in a more or less non-predicatable pattern, unless you have some magic way to tell exactly when the boss is going to use this skill and whom he will be targetting.

...


- Melusine needs to be moved out of glowing circle segments (and there doesn't seem to be a fixed pattern for which segment will light up next, thus the required tank/boss movement is not exactly 'predictable')
- last boss Quarn HM, tank needs to move boss a lot and there's usually more than one safe spot the tank may move to ... unless you are communicating with the tank (which rarely happens in roulette groups), there's no way to predict the tanks's movement and therefore the boss' movement as well

Refresh early if your tank is so awful you can't tell which way they're going to go.

Targets may be random but you can use your own judgment. Qarn HM boss (or Titan Landslide for that matter) will only target a random player, correct? So if you need to refresh HT and everyone else is north-ish or south-ish, you have a pretty good idea of where to go when he would start turning. You do know his rotation right? No? Oh, that's your problem then.

This is a big reason why people stack for Landslide/Weight on Titan and many many other bosses. Not just for raid simplicity but for the sake of your damage.

[Vodomir]

Refresh early if your tank is so awful you can't tell which way they're going to go.

Which again is a DPS loss (over being able to maintain the optimal rotation). And just to be clear, it's not "my tank" at all, as I don't always bring my personal tank buddy to queue up for dungeon roulettes.

Targets may be random but you can use your own judgment. Qarn HM boss (or Titan Landslide for that matter) will only target a random player, correct? So if you need to refresh HT and everyone else is north-ish or south-ish, you have a pretty good idea of where to go when he would start turning. You do know his rotation right? No? Oh, that's your problem then.

Yeah, cause in every random party during a dungeon roulette each and everyone stacks up with the DRG instead of being all over the place (like healers and ranged DDs usually do in there). And yes, I do know Titan's rotation, that's why I didn't list Titan to begin with.