When is it OK to say, "It's Not OK"

[Tiggy]

NyarukoW, this thread was not about Clear Sellers. Stop taking these topics and throwing them completely off topic while you preach about the horrors of clear selling. You've gone to great lengths in another thread to make sure everyone knows how you feel. We know know already, and many people still don't care. Repeating yourself over and over won't suddenly make people change their minds or rewrite how society works. Get off your high horse.

And you felt compelled to defend their so-called honor, why?

I defend myself. I'm a raider and I fall into the generalizations made in this thread despite the insane amount of my personal time I spent helping people get wins. (over 50% of my personal time in game) I know I don't fit those generalizations so I make the argument against them. Not everyone is white knight for someone else like you are.

The vast majority of the player base just want the opportunity to learn and progress, and preferably without drama, even if it takes more than 50 wipes and lots of waiting and learning.

Assumptions. I've literally heard and seen personally tanks in dungeons who quit after a suggestion as innocuous as "if you throw flash into your rotation you'll have an easier time keeping those adds off the blm" to which you get the response "DON'T TELL ME HOW TO PLAY" and a rage quit leaving us half way through a dungeon without a tank. Not everyone is as wholesome and willing to learn as you seem to think. Some people take even the nicest most kindly formed suggestion and rage back against it. You can't teach people who don't want to learn and those people certainly do exist in the game and in larger numbers than you want to accept.

Buy clears is not enjoying the game, it is bypassing it. Enjoying the game means enjoying wiping with friends, learning to solve the puzzle together, building friendships, etc. etc. And that high horse?

YES that's a high horse. You are in no position to tell people how to play. At all. What you enjoy, what I enjoy, and what others enjoy are all different things. That's the beauty of MMO's. I said this in a previous thread and I'll say it here too. Stop telling people how to play. and I'll add that you are not the almighty FFXIV Jesus who gets to determine what is right and wrong. Stop acting like it.

If they are limited in the there ability and time, surely can do stick to doing nothing, and not go out of their way to do less than nothing. Yet you seem here making all sorts of false accusations.

THIS is a accusation. Stop telling other people they are making accusations and assumptions when that's all you do left and right. You're making the accusation that people with limited time not only do nothing but somehow do less than nothing. First off there is NO CONSPIRACY TO HOLD NEW PLAYERS DOWN AND PREVENT THEM FROM MAKING PROGRESS, and secondly YOU DONT KNOW WHAT KIND OF PEOPLE ARE OUT THERE. These ridiculous generalizations against people who aren't in your limited group of "people that need help" need to stop. This us vs them mentality. You need to get over this issue. It's insulting and off topic for this thread, and makes you far worse than the raiders you are hating on. You're attitude is far more toxic and far more negative than any raider I've ever personally met.

And you felt compelled to defend their so-called honor, why?

Maybe you should stop defending other people. You're honestly ruining their arguments, distracting from their original point, and making yourself a negative spectacle that actually achieves the opposite of what you want. Knock it off. At this point the best thing you personally can do to help is to walk away.

If you want to bemoan and talk about the blight of clear sellers MAKE YOUR OWN THREAD. Stop hijacking the threads of others for your soapbox.

[Symbiant]

snip

I think we have some possible comprehension issues here. In my other post; (the one you are quoting) I stated "Based off that assumption I would think that the op has tried everything in ones power to remedy in the situation"

So at this point the above what you have stated had already been applied. There comes a point when personal frustration out weighs the point of trying to improve someone. If any one tries to work with someone to the point of there own frustration then that is coddling.

Some have the belief that this kid of coddled approach will improve society but, it has proven otherwise. Crime rates are way up compared to older times. Kids going into schools shooting each other. It all comes from a coddled life.

While I do appreciate that you and others try to help people to the best of your knowledge and as I do my self but, there is a line in the sand and that's when I become mentally / emotionally involved once that occurs its time to remove the problem or remove my self from the problem.

[Remilia_Nightfall]

At this point, I am not sure whether NyarukoW is a very elaborate and succesfull troll or...something else.

I am seriously torn.

[HakuroDK]

The frustration from one side of the argument comes from the fact that a lot of people can't handle wiping on the same raid over and over. Wiping once is expected, but wiping 20 times just trying to get a single clear is absolutely demoralizing and many people cannot find a static because people have since moved on to Second or Final Coil already and many of those players care only for their own progression and the progression of their Free Company/Static. That demoralization is why people are upset, frustrated, and downright angry at the lack of assistance with T5. In fact, it seems virtually impossible for some.

The other side of the argument are comprised of people who were either fortunate enough to get through T5 without being demoralized or have the mental fortitude to push forward despite being demoralized. They are comprised of skilled and/or lucky players who were able to get through T5, but lack empathy for those who have yet to clear because, like they themselves, the people who have yet to clear have to rely on the resources they have to clear and should not receive any special treatment.

There's no real "right" or "wrong" group here. Just two groups of people with two very different, very polarized ideologies.

Earlier in this thread, I was angry--infuriated, even--that someone would even assume that it's my fault that I have yet to clear T5. And to a point, that still gets me frustrated because it's a real challenge to find a group of people who are both skilled and willing to clear the content you need to clear. But now that my mind is a lot more sound, I can see where the other side is coming from. I don't agree with it at all and I think it's a very Ayn Rand kind of stance to be taking towards a video game, but I at least understand.

[Tiggy]

They are comprised of skilled and/or lucky players who were able to get through T5, but lack empathy for those who have yet to clear because, like they themselves, the people who have yet to clear have to rely on the resources they have to clear and should not receive any special treatment.

There's no real "right" or "wrong" group here. Just two groups of people with two very different, very polarized ideologies.

I agree with everything you said but these two points. You assume there are only two kinds of people, and that those with T5 wins all don't have empathy for those without. That is false. There are many people with wins that do want others to get wins and to move to harder content. That has been largely my point in this entire thread. It's not black and white. It's not us or them. It's a large community of complex individuals and it is a disservice to lump them all into a Have or Have Not beaten T5 group, even more of a disservice to then equate traits to those people solely based on their T5 status. The only thing that separates that kind of attitude from things like racism is that we are talking about personality traits and abilities as opposed to the color of ones skin. It's still a prejudice based on something as arbitrary as beating a single boss.

Are there people who have the wins that don't help others? Sure, but the opposite is true to. There are people with wins that do help others.

Are there people who don't have wins that try really hard? Sure, but there are also those who expect carries and get nasty when people refuse.

Human beings are far more complex animals than just black and white answers, and people from both sides of the argument could stand to comprehend that a little better. The primary reason this is so polarized an issue is because some people from the "We need more help in T5" camp seem to refuse to acknowledge that all raiders aren't bad people and that some do help, and because some people on the raider side refuse to acknowledge some people looking for T5 aren't there for hand outs.

More understanding could come from both sides.

[Gardes]

The frustration from one side of the argument comes from the fact that a lot of people can't handle wiping on the same raid over and over. Wiping once is expected, but wiping 20 times just trying to get a single clear is absolutely demoralizing and many people cannot find a static because people have since moved on to Second or Final Coil already and many of those players care only for their own progression and the progression of their Free Company/Static. That demoralization is why people are upset, frustrated, and downright angry at the lack of assistance with T5. In fact, it seems virtually impossible for some.

You mentioned that people cannot find a static (I'm assuming still talking about static for t5 here) with other people who have already gotten past t5 and there are MANY of the former. What's stopping the former from making a static amongst themselves? Should they do make one, they'll have a group of people who have never beaten t5 and they can practice t5 to their heart's content without the latter's condescension, right? Of course, you can use your first sentence as an excuse (easily demoralized) to explain how this will never work but then, how do you expect people who can help to be patient when people who can help themselves and are impatient with people in the same situation as theirs despite needing the win? How can you consider not being easily demoralizes as 'fortunate'? That doesn't even make sense.

[odintius]

Well, I agree with this but you assume also that there are many people in your personnel experience not other's that want people to get their wins do harder content ect, but others peoples experiences maybe on the opposite spectrum of the issue. For my personnel experience its more in line in the gray area not straight up black or white also, but it does happen now and then how often who knows for sure purely speculation on either side.

[Tiggy]

For my personnel experience its more in line in the gray area not straight up black or white also, but it does happen now and then how often who knows for sure purely speculation on either side.

Extremely accurate.

[NyarukoW]

...Repeating yourself over and over won't suddenly make people change their minds or rewrite how society works...

Maybe I am not very good at it, but this is the fundamental core of marketing and advertising. They repeat the same message however cleverly packaged and they are good at changing the packaging but they persist at it and they do change minds and they do work. The only that doesn't work is to stay silent and get overran.

I defend myself. I'm a raider and I fall into the generalizations made in this thread...

Really all this pretense at false self-indignation. No one is accusing your of anything, yet you take it so personally, which means you are unable to see thing objectively and from a bigger picture.

The frustration from one side of the argument comes from the fact that a lot of people can't handle wiping on the same raid over and over. Wiping once is expected, but wiping 20 times just trying to get a single clear is absolutely demoralizing and many people cannot find a static because people have since moved on...

Creating, finding, and maintaining a static is not easy. People with experience knows that to do T6-T9 you will probably need north for 200 wipes combined. This a substantial time demand, and the default expectation is not to clear any time soon, and empathize from having that understanding. Instead of empathy we see accusation about how everyone else that does have a clear as being "lazy", "spoonfed", "want carries", etc. which is all blatant false accusations about the vast majority of the player base. If they don't have the time to help, they do not have to, but they do not need to insult the other players like we see in this thread and many others.

[Tiggy]

Really all this pretense at false self-indignation. No one is accusing your of anything, yet you take it so personally, which means you are unable to see thing objectively and from a
bigger picture.

In another thread you literally called me a clear seller. You can't keep saying these things acting like you aren't accusing people with your generalizations. You're very insulting.

Maybe I am not very good at it, but this is the fundamental core of marketing and advertising.

Then make your own thread and stop hijacking the threads and conversations of others for your own purposes. It's not that hard. There is a right and a wrong place for your soapbox. You have continued picking the wrong one. Make your own thread and if people feel like engaging with that conversation then they will. Stop throwing threads completely off topic with your clear selling rants.