When is it OK to say, "It's Not OK"

[HakuroDK]

And SE would need to INCENTIVIZE running these for players who knew the content, perhaps with a daily roulette that awarded tomes and a possible minion or mount drop... NOT GC Seals or crafting mats. Adding an increased chance of mounts dropping to EX Primals is all well and good, but all it does is give experienced players a reason to repeat the content with each other.

There is already a system in place where running content with someone who has not yet cleared the content gets a bonus of tomestones. For T5, that's 100 Soldiery (formerly 100 Myth).

Honestly? That should be incentive enough. Though for even more incentive in a way that makes sense, I think that bonus should have a multiplier on it for each new player in a run. Two new players? 200 Soldiery bonus. Three new players? 300. Four new players? 400. That should grant incentive to experienced players trying to get Soldiery Tomes for things like mats or books.

Obviously the only time this should not happen is in brand new, fresh-to-the-latest-patch content. But for any other content? That'd be amazing for all parties involved.

Also, I'm a little more mellow than I was earlier in this thread. Someone reached out to me in-game from this very topic and actually renewed my faith quite a bit that T5 actually can be done without Blue Garter-level mastery and teamwork.

[Eirwen]

/snip

Being told you are doing a terrible job during a run is one thing, but to be told that "you suck" BEFORE engaging (also during) in anything just because you ilevel is on the low side is terrible and discriminative, i.m.o. It really makes me hate this ilevel thing more by the day. Way to go showing them that it takes skill to handle situations! I would totally laugh at that super geared person afterwards. Just because they got a higher ilevel doesn't mean that they are good. But when do you say to them that being a high ilevel bragger "is not okay"?

[HakuroDK]

Being told you are doing a terrible job during a run is one thing, but to be told that "you suck" BEFORE engaging (also during) in anything just because you ilevel is on the low side is terrible and discriminative, i.m.o. It really makes me hate this ilevel thing more by the day. Way to go showing them that it takes skill to handle situations! I would totally laugh at that super geared person afterwards. Just because they got a higher ilevel doesn't mean that they are good. But when do you say to them that being a high ilevel bragger "is not okay"?

OH MY GOD, THIS.

I was running Copperbell HM about a month after it came out. I was 20 ilvls above the minimum ilvl requirement (which is a pretty safe place for any content, really). I was tanking with this White Mage who kept calling me a terrible tank because I couldn't single-handedly hold off an entire group of enemies by myself without needing a single heal (while he was holyspamming to high heavens), Got so bad that, once we hit the boss room (a boss I have tanked very easily since day 1 of 2.1), I was just like "Sorry, I'm clearly not good enough to fight this boss. I hope you find a better tank soon." and just quit.

Roetip: If you're going in an HM dungeon or trial and someone is in the bare minimum required gear, that does not mean they suck. They're not at their highest potential, sure, but they could have enough skill to optimize their job. That's why there is a minimum ilvl on everything in the endgame. EX Trials and Raids I can kinda understand, but it is not okay, in HMs, to criticize someone right out of the gate due to their gear level.

[AutumnsHollow]

If you want to find like minded members who are at the same skill level as you why not make a party finder and be specific about what your expectations are?

For example; LF more for first time turn five clear, please know up to twisters. Short, simple, and to the point. You'll have the potential to get people who already beat it, but want to help, and like minded individuals who also are where you at skill level wise, and need their clear too.

I personally think your views are jaded from your experiences. I've pugged turn 1 - 8, and there were plenty of parties with jerks, but there was also many nice people, and really fun parties. It's doable without a static, raiding FC, or voice chat.

It sucks encountering jerks, but honestly don't let it get to you too much. If it gets to the point where you don't want to attempt harderer content out of fear for getting yelled at you need thicker skin.

You shouldn't project your experiences, and frustrations onto others though. Not everyone who's at end game is the way you describe, and if I met you in game and I wanted to help you, and you projected that onto me, I wouldn't bother wasting my time to help you. I'm not gonna help some random person who's a dick to me for no reason, I'm no Mother Teresa.

[Kazumac]

My way of handling others (be it duty finder, PF or FC/LS members) is to ask if they need a rundown before the content. If w wipe due to a mistake try to help them by identifying the mistake. Example tam Tara HM if too many adds are making it to the center suggest to the SMN or SCH to use energy drain for a bit more burst and save aetherflow stacks for that phase. Depending on the response I get, determines how I will proceed. I make an effort to never put in any qualifiers such as bad, terrible, etc. just directly call out an action or actions that need to be taken.

Responses are usually positive if I approach that way. If I feel frustration mounting to the point where I can't help without being "mean" that's my cue to excuse myself from the run (this is harder with FC/LS members).

[Lux_Rayna]

Duty finder you are allowed to "wing it". That is what duty finder is for. Its to link up with groups quickly and easily so you can do content. Last I checked, there is no prereq in duty finder that says "must know the fight". Part of the fun in trying something for the first time is learning it on the fly. Besides any group that isnt full of brain-dead flesh bags will summarize the mechanics to all newcomers. This is how we used to accomplish things before youtube.

If you're entering an organized group, its a given you must meet their expectations. But duty finder is duty finder, and I find that no such requirement should exist.

[Symbiant]

Snip

I am pretty sure the op stated that when you know it was not going to work. Based off that assumption I would think that the op has tried everything in ones power to remedy in the situation and @ that point it is either leave or kick them. I personally don't tolerate people that are making my game time a second job and I will only put up with so much before I either leave or kick them.

As I stated before the lesser evil is removing the bad apple from the barrel of good apples or removing ones self from such situations. An entire group should not have to grind through 3 hrs of bs because someone has the inability to learn / adapt after multiple explanations.

I am not saying kick someone immediately but, there is a time when it is to be done and that time is when I decide it is time. I don't care about the current p.c. / coddling that goes on in today's generation. I am about whats best for the group and my self and if it hurts someone coddled persons feeling I really don't care.

It's just like running a company when your expense are up and you have to cut or shut down.. well you have to either fire people or reduce cost. If you have to fire people that's just the way it goes. Nothing personal it's just the logical decision to cut 50 people to save 1200 peoples jobs. It's that simple.

[Kazumac]

I don't care about the current p.c. / coddling that goes on in today's generation. I am about whats best for the group and my self and if it hurts someone coddled persons feeling I really don't care.

I also feel the name calling and lack of real advice is quite prevalent. I think the best advice especially when you are in the thick of it is direct and pointed advice or identification of the issue. (Quite possibly we are advocating the same approach) I see far too many "player xyz your dps is horrible" vs "player xyz your damage needs to be higher during that phase. Save your raging strikes/fester/other cool downs etc."

Both call out the issue in question. One facilitates improvement. The other usually evokes a defensive response. My approach is not coddling and sure some people will take offense but at least I've left them with something they can hopefully use to improve.

[Prototype909]

The problem is that in high end encounters 7/8 players might literally be unable to carry an 8th player. There are some fights as it stands now that it doesn't matter if seven people know the fight and are well geared, one person's mistake will cause a wipe of the whole group or will eventually lead to the inability to a wipe for everyone involved.

Fights in this game are like eight single player fights going on at once. You generally just have to worry about your own role and hope even one of the other 7 people doesn't mess up, thus killing everyone else. This is why even having one person that doesn't know what they're doing is such a detriment. Try doing T9 with someone who doesn't understand thunder or divebombs, even if the other 7 people understand the mechanic they're still going to die. Or T5 before echo with divebombs + twisters. Of course this behavior extends past Coil, but it's the same fundamental concept (Even in dungeons where it's without reason). Why take a chance on someone who doesn't understand the fight from the start when the game is predicated on everyone having to know exactly what the "dance" so to speak is? It's just going to be a long and painful process for the seven people who understand the fight to explain everything that for all intents and purposes you should already know before you go in, just so that you can potentially still fail at it and waste everyone's time.

People go into instances expecting one shots and max gear because that's just the expectation the playerbase has at this point. Nobody wants to baby newer players (Even if you're only a day late to content). Is this unfair? Absolutely. There's nothing that can really be done about it though unless SE finds some way to add incentive to having more patience (Which the first time bonus is already meant to do).

[NyarukoW]

The point is every person who raids out there isn't a terrible horrible person who doesn't want to help, ...

And you felt compelled to defend their so-called honor, why?

They are not terrible until they start insulting everyone else on the forums with terms like "lazy", "no iniative", "don't listen", "won't learn", "spoon fed", etc. etc. The vast majority of the player base just want the opportunity to learn and progress, and preferably without drama, even if it takes more than 50 wipes and lots of waiting and learning. If they are limited in the there ability and time, surely can do stick to doing nothing, and not go out of their way to do less than nothing. Yet you seem here making all sorts of false accusations.