Could have SE unknowing set FFXIV to fail....

[Sylve]

I wouldn't be able to enjoy group content if they removed the holy trinity.

Dunno if its sarcasm, but i kinda agree with this. I love Tanking. I've been a Tank in any MMO or game that had the Role.

[Lord_Zlatan]

@ Tupsi "You won't get anywhere with a Black Mage acting as a healer."

Thats a pretty biased argument because the job was never intended to be a healer. RDM had the ability to do all those things because that is what it is marketed as. I doubt we will get something with the array of equips and spells RDM had (RDM main here), and that sucks. However, I do agree that there needs to be more break away from the trinity simply because it gets boring from time to time.

[Haprimac]

Trinity' works because MMOs CAN'Twork any other way, currently.
For as long as combat is auto target DnD dice rolls with stats, we can't break away from it.
...
I don't think we'll ever see an MMO without the trinity system in some form.

Going slightly off topic here, but since this is only my second mmo and my first mmo was Lord of the Rings Online, I'd like to point out that I hadn't even heard of this trinity stuff before this game. LotRO had solid classes and pretty much all of them had primary and secondary roles.

I would write about the classes here, but I doubt anybody would be interested and I have difficulty to keep it short and sweet. x') But the point is that the game pretty much plays even with 'full support classes' and you could do dungeons without a pure tank/healer as long as you used careful coordination, crowd control and minor support heals. It was one of the things that really made the game fun. You weren't restricted to play certain roles or classes to complete dungeons or raids, you just needed to have a good plan. And you could really make the classes your own! In this game you're "doin' it wrong" if you don't play in a certain way and use certain rotations, but in LotRO you could constantly improvise and try out different things.

The sad thing is that I've pretty much lowered my expectations when it comes to dungeons in this game. It's always the same old. It doesn't help that you play the classes the same way in every encounter.

[Lord_Zlatan]

LOTRO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.[/I]

This guy gets it.

What you say is true, but as always only to a certain degree. A Captain (which was a full blown support class like FFXI BRD) could solo heal lower tier content (3-6man) with the right setup of other Classes. Guardian (optimal for a tank) could be a full on DPS if it equipped a Greatsword and other gear fitting for the role. Conversely, the Dual Wielding Champion could just equip a shield and now its a tank. I even tanked on my Hunter when the level cap was 65.

All of these cute ideas got thrown out the window when it came to raiding. You would never bring a champion to tank Sammath Gul or have a Captain solo heal in OD. Possible, yes, but only by completely outgearing the content from top to bottom.

That game was awesome ; ;

[Asierid]

If you honestly think that's fine and that doing substandard DPS while providing pretty much nothing else to your group, literally being completely outclassed by both other melee jobs is acceptable because "with enough gear anyone can do anything!" then I'd like to hear your thoughts on removing all of Bard's songs and how viable/important he is to a group comp anymore.

To be quite frank, the mobility at a range gives BRD a significant survival boost compared to other ranged, minus songs. Not to mention the DPS.

WAR just sucked because the abilities were bad, no amount of tuning the old abilities could have made that balanced. I'm not disagreeing with you, but you can't compare 2.0 WAR to current patch DRG. DRG just really needs some numbers tweaked and the stupid flank on Heavy thrust removed. Providing NIN with a raidwide damage buff was a mistake also, that basically seals a raid spot for a NIN. I never said it was optimal, but DRG -can- do it...you just have to be more careful.

[Empressia]

This is more of comparing the job system within FFXIV. The one thing I liked about FFXI was even against heavy odds, people found ways to beat the tank-healer-dps system. Players were given tools to make soloing, even though difficult, possible.

With dungeons and end game content, it's so dependent on tanks that a DPS player could not survive soloing and end up being driven down like a nail in wet soil. There's no way that I can see a party of Bards or Black mages making grounds in content.

Funny thing I always mention is in the strategy guide for Ninjas for FFXI, they said it was a hard sell in the subjob area. Who knew what it became when people figured out ways to use it as a subjob.

Could they break the Tank-Healer-DPS system? Would it be too powerful if they did?

Op play gw2 then and u'll see the horde of QQs regarding all class can heal effectively and 5 tanky guardians steamroll everything in pve

[SpookyGhost]

but you can't compare 2.0 WAR to current patch DRG.

I can agree with that. WAR had other problems besides the gear discrepancy vs PLDs - I experienced many of them first hand. :P I do think DRG is in an unfortunate situation, which is really disappointing for me since DRG is my only DPS job I have leveled and I really enjoy playing it. DRG certainly can do it, but it's similar to WAR's situation where you had to play around their weaknesses to make it through the fight... which isn't how it should be. I think they definitely deserve a buff, I don't even care about the damage just +MDEF and +Utility would be more than enough for me. We are getting way off topic though, I think, so I'll just shut up now.

[Ghishlain]

(Protip: no job was excluded, just people bad at x job which is why people didn't want to take the job, for example people said Blue Mage and Corsair were worthless end-game.)

My alter ego back in 2008 would like to have a word for you as I was a Galka WHM in the 3X range that seeked a party for EIGHT HOURS in a single day without one. single. bloody. tell. looking for EXP. It eventually came to a point where I just took things into my own hands and used Besiged and Campaign from 3X to 54 so I could join ToAU parties and even then, WHMs were scorned upon in EXP parties during that time frame.

While it was possible to get invites, your chances of getting those invites were directly related to what job you were trying to level at the time. Got a SAM? Enjoy that free ride all the way to the top. NIN? Same deal. BRD or RDM? HELL YES!

---

and mostly everyone else just tell the newbies to level Bard or go home lol.

Yeah...that hasn't been true since 2003.

Hate to say it but this is true. With the way XI gearing dynamic has become, it's actually the easiest to become "raid ready" as a support job (with BRD being the most popular choice) and then diversify your jobs from there. Since being raid capable requires you to complete raids for raid gear, it's that vicious cycle that keeps repeating. Most support classes can circumvent the gear check in XI that to a degree as long as they have a solid fundamental understanding of their job and have key pieces of their gear sets that were generally easy to acquire. This is in contrast to DPS slot where it was difficult to break into because your DPS is nothing compared to the DPS of another player who has access to high tier equipment.

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Players were given tools to make soloing, even though difficult, possible.

This is definitely one aspect I miss about XI. The challenge of taking on content not designed to be handled by one individual - was quite the thrill.

[Lord_Zlatan]

I'll just shut up now.

Im in the same boat as you. Long time DRG fan in FF series so I leveled it up and geard it out.

Conversely, id even trade in utility for more spike damage. The hallmark of DRG is jumps. They do way too little damage IMO. There is some math out there I think in this thread that states the DRG reduced CD on jumps increases DPS by 1%... why not go ahead and raise the potency on that so its up to even 3% or dare I say 5%? The tradeoff would be that they have no utility besides boosting BRD dps. I think thats fair.

MDEF needs to go up though, everyone agrees on that.

[Lord_Zlatan]

Myself alter ego back in 2008 would like to have a word for you as I was a Galka WHM in the 3X range that seeked a party for EIGHT HOURS in a single day without one. single. bloody. tell. looking for EXP. It eventually came to a point where I just took things into my own hands and used Besiged and Campaign from 3X to 54 so I could join ToAU parties and even then, WHMs were scorned upon in EXP parties during that time frame.

While it was possible to get invites, your chances of getting those invites were directly related to what job you were trying to level at the time. Got a SAM? Enjoy that free ride all the way to the top. NIN? Same deal. BRD or RDM? HELL YES!

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Hate to say it but this is true. With the way XI gearing dynamic has become, it's actually the easiest to become "raid ready" as a support job (with BRD being the most popular choice) and then diversify your jobs from there. Since being raid capable requires you to complete raids for raid gear, it's that vicious cycle that keeps repeating. Most support classes can circumvent the gear check in XI that to a degree as long as they have a solid fundamental understanding of their job and have key pieces of their gear sets that were generally easy to acquire. This is in contrast to DPS slot where it was difficult to break into because your DPS is nothing compared to the DPS of another player who has access to high tier equipment.

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This is definitely one aspect I miss about XI. The challenge of taking on content not designed to be handled by one individual - was quite the thrill.

This post is all true. 100% sums up FFXI (a game I loved as well)