The cycle of disbanding that keep casuals from doing content

[Tiggy]

The two statements sure look almost identical. The only difference is you have not done clear sell.

I don't specifically support run sellers and even in that quote I merely say that I understand where they come from not that I support them. There is a very specific difference. The difference is I don't care how other people spend there time and I don't intend to tell them the right and wrong way to do it. I have whats called empathy for my fellow man. I attempt to understand them and their motivations. However you seem perfectly fine telling people what is and isn't an acceptable way to play without understanding them at all. To me you are more disgusting than those run sellers.

Way to completely avoid the fact that you blatantly attributed the quote of someone else to me. You failed and like usual you gleefully ignore it. You even called me out to prove and not only did I do so but another person did as well.

More nonsensical strawman. Not everyone is a clear seller, that much is obvious.

You keep telling people they produce straw men but they aren't. They are responding to your rhetoric. Rhetoric that clearly assumes all raiders are run sellers. You yourself falsely attributed me as such as we just pointed out to you so you can't even sit there and act like you aren't making broad generalizations. It even took you like 15 minutes or so just to find a weak quote well after the moment where you accused me. You are getting these arguments against you because of your own personal rhetoric. Stop acting like you have no hand in this.

[Ghishlain]

The two statements sure look almost identical. The only difference is you have not done clear sell.

So, someone who sells a clear is THE EXACT SAME PERSON as someone who can UNDERSTAND if someone would want to sell clears, but haven't sold it themselves.

I do NOT equate raiders as clear sellers ever.

Clearly. That or you lack context and are denser than a black hole.

Again.

-Stop broadly generalizing all of the "other side" as the same coin. This isn't a black and white argument, there are two points and every single possible shade of grey in between.

Instead of blaming all the raiders in an over arching category of "clear selling", learn to EMPATHIZE with the situation. While it is commendable what you want to do, it's not as simple as taking every Tom, Dick, and Harry into T6 and beating it for them. They don't learn anything from doing that, nor would they have the possible capability to do that.

-There's a group of players who will never be competent enough to clear Coil effectively (you can see that on how limiting some players are in Syrcus Tower).

You can bring a horse to water, but you cannot make them drink it. Some players, no matter how hard we try, will be never able to see T5 and on cleared. That's what story line Coil is for - so they can enjoy the story without the high difficulty.

I am not wasting my precious time on a "random" player who is clearly incapable of beating Coil. Yet I will take the time to help someone I respect and looking for a hand and have proven capable via other trials.

[Zumi]

You can't really blame other players for their playstyle. If you want people who will stick together throughout the wipes you need to make some better friends. A MMO is about meeting people and forming a team you can do content with.

[Andevom]

I'm just gonna roll with what Zumi just said, since it was the nicest thing I've read in the past several pages of this increasingly vitriolic thread.

[NyarukoW]

So, someone who sells a clear is THE EXACT SAME PERSON as someone who can UNDERSTAND if someone would want to sell clears, but haven't sold it themselves.

And they would gladly play devil's advocate for the clear sellers and never chastise them. Well then, what is the practical difference on the forums here? You are either for or against clear sells. There is no wishy-washy weaselly middle ground there.

-Stop broadly generalizing all of the "other side" as the same coin. This isn't a black and white argument, there are two points and every single possible shade of grey in between.
.

While it is NOT all black and white, but there is nothing "broadly generalizing" when specific facts show that PF learning parties stay unfilled for hours on end and simultaneously clear sellers are advertising 24/7 on the PF, i.e. someone with clear experience is sitting there on the PF but could not be bothered to lift a finger. And at the same time as specifically has been experienced and presented, the OP like many others are having difficulty finding, creating, or maintaining a static.

Instead of blaming all the raiders....

I do NOT lump raiders and clear sellers together, and I do not blame raiders in any sort of "broadly generalizing" way, but if they are going to be apathetic then they are not helping. And if they are not going to help, the least they can do is avoid doing less than nothing, like making the repeated false accusations about how the newer players, newbies, or anyone else less fortunate are somehow lazy, lack initiative, want to be spoonfed, etc. etc. etc. I see that way too much on these forums.

[Tiggy]

I do NOT lump raiders and clear sellers together

You literally did this in your last ten posts. Myself and another posted proof to show it. You're lying through your teeth. Repeating this mantra will not change the fact that we literally just read you do it.

[NyarukoW]

... lying...

What is there to lie about. The facts are plain as day to see. The threads, posts are all here.

And clear sellers are subset of raiders, so clear sellers have to get past being raiders first. But not all raiders are clear sellers. NOT all of the join the dark side you know. I don't know how you have problems with such basic logic.

But the line gets easier to cross to the dark side, when the take the attitude that demonizes the newer players, newbies, and start treating them as less than equal. Then before you know it, they don't feel a thing about selling clears, and treat the rest of the player base with contempt and disdain. This what can happen when they do not look to be more inclusive.

[Ghishlain]

I'm going to be just like you and take something completely outta context to disprove one part of your argument.

simultaneously clear sellers are advertising 24/7 on the PF

This was as of 8 minutes ago.

Clearly, you're wrong with exactly what you said. The closest thing you'll be able to ding me for is that one guy saying "please no 100s" for their T9 farm.

Stop broadly generalizing.

[Tiggy]

I do NOT lump raiders and clear sellers together

This. It's a lie. That fact is as you say plain as day to see. The threads, posts are all here.

And clear sellers are subset of raiders, so clear sellers have to get past being raiders first. But not all raiders are clear sellers. NOT all of the join the dark side you know. I don't know how you have problems with such basic logic.

Because you literally didn't say this the whole time. You only started saying this recently and even then only after people called you out. This isn't bugs bunny. You can't say "no" over and over and suddenly throw a "yes" in to turn things around. It doesn't magically wipe out everything you've said until now.

Even if you did think this the whole time your rhetoric and your idealized argument clearly don't agree with one another. You really need to pay more attention to what you say and how you choose to say it. The haste to which you told me to "start with shedding the shameless clear seller attitude like this" proves that you aren't thinking anything through. You're just reflexively posting to get the last word in and to nitpick even the smallest parts of the argument. Throwing "straw man" around and trivializing the opinions of others.

[Exstal]

Simple version:
Speed run is fine, speed runners are NOT.
Elite players are fine, elitists are NOT.
Raiders are fine, clear sellers are NOT.

Somehow people have a hard time separating out the two. I do NOT know why that is.
.

The reasoning is because it's not a fully formed set of statements.

All speed runners like to speed run, not all speed runs are done by speed runners.
All elitist players are elite (or supposed to be), not all elite players are elitist.
-this is the important one-
All clear sellers are raiders, not all raiders are clear sellers.

This is the fundamental misunderstanding you're omitting. There's also the, "not all clear sellers are heartless fiends who don't help other players randomly", which you have never once assumed existed. Don't paint the picture black and white when there are unused colours on the palette.